Why is the Maxim Death Loop Still a Thing?

Its nice to point out what favours your opinion, right? You missed his point btw (this thread is about maxims)



This is half the truth and you know it (or you should know it). There are plenty other situations where maxim loop death can happen (getting flanked, getting out of a building...).
Making a point just because you are good at the game...classic "Führer syndrome" as Imperial Dane would say.

LUL dude, it is you who totally missed the point. This thread is about Maxims but his argument was that Cons are bad - which is ridiculous.

Top level players open with Cons virtually all the time. I'm not in the top 10 or top 50, but from watching their streams Cons are for sure the no. 1 option. Rank 100 to 200 is the same. Saying that Cons are bad is factually wrong, which was why I felt I had to counter it.


You got EVERYTHING WRONG, in fact. You just wrongly (and stupidly) assumed my stance. I actually think weapon team death loops are bad for balance. But I felt it was more important to focus on the ridiculous claim that Cons are bad.

Its nice to point out what favours your opinion, right? You missed his point btw (this thread is about maxims)



This is half the truth and you know it (or you should know it). There are plenty other situations where maxim loop death can happen (getting flanked, getting out of a building...).
Making a point just because you are good at the game...classic "Führer syndrome" as Imperial Dane would say.

Imperial Dane is a meme tbh.



Even still, why punish a faction simply b/c he/she cant pack up their MG wile the other factions have theirs teleport is a pretty fair point. Getting "flanked" and getting out of the building are all part of the same issue however.

God forbid getting an mg flanked has a chance of killing it...

LUL dude, it is you who totally missed the point. This thread is about Maxims but his argument was that Cons are bad - which is ridiculous.

Top level players open with Cons virtually all the time. I'm not in the top 10 or top 50, but from watching their streams Cons are for sure the no. 1 option. Rank 100 to 200 is the same. Saying that Cons are bad is factually wrong, which was why I felt I had to counter it.


You got EVERYTHING WRONG, in fact. You just wrongly (and stupidly) assumed my stance. I actually think weapon team death loops are bad for balance. But I felt it was more important to focus on the ridiculous claim that Cons are bad.

He had two arguments, one on topic and one off topic. You chose to answer on the off topic, that's what I am saying. Leave the cons aside (he is wrong btw about them).

Imperial Dane is a meme tbh.



Even still, why punish a faction simply b/c he/she cant pack up their MG wile the other factions have theirs teleport is a pretty fair point. Getting "flanked" and getting out of the building are all part of the same issue however.

It doesn't matter how and when, the point is it happens and only on the maxim and that's not right, right?

God forbid getting an mg flanked has a chance of killing it...

Not every flank means a wipe.

Get real all of you an admit something that is wrong.
The only MG that teleports is an MG42 (and maybe the MG34, i am not sure) and this is so because years ago in one patch Relic changed that because it was to easy to wipe it. Since then other MGs came into the game and nothing happened, they all have the death loop shit and at the maxim the effect is the worst.

I am not biased or something, i want fairness and MGs for that matter don't have that. You can twist it, stretch it or whatever, this is how it is.

Get real all of you an admit something that is wrong.
The only MG that teleports is an MG42 (and maybe the MG34, i am not sure) and this is so because years ago in one patch Relic changed that because it was to easy to wipe it. Since then other MGs came into the game and nothing happened, they all have the death loop shit and at the maxim the effect is the worst.

I am not biased or something, i want fairness and MGs for that matter don't have that. You can twist it, stretch it or whatever, this is how it is.

Quit talking out your ass. The only mgs that don't have it are the maxim and the DSHK, because they are 6 man weapon teams. It balances out.

Not every flank means a wipe.

chance

noun
1.
a possibility of something happening.
"there is a chance of winning the raffle"
synonyms: possibility, prospect, probability, odds, likelihood, likeliness, expectation, anticipation, conceivability, feasibility, plausibility; More

Quit talking out your ass. The only mgs that don't have it are the maxim and the DSHK, because they are 6 man weapon teams. It balances out.

I won't sink to your level and just answer with facts.

Look at this replay at the 35 min, he hits the retreat with 3 men and look what happens. Gunner dies and the next guy goes to the gun, not the gun to the guy. Fortunately, they escape. This happens when the 50 cal is retreating but is not packed up yet.



This is the best i could find in such a short time, there are many more of these with the 50 cal..

I won't sink to your level and just answer with facts.

Look at this replay at the 35 min, he hits the retreat with 3 men and look what happens. Gunner dies and the next guy goes to the gun, not the gun to the guy. Fortunately, they escape. This happens when the 50 cal is retreating but is not packed up yet.



This is the best i could find in such a short time, there are many more of these with the 50 cal..

You're right, I forgot about the 50 cal. It's really the fast set-up/teardown mgs (maxim, dshk, 50 cal) vs the slow defensive mgs (mg42, mg34, vickers)



I can see your argument if you wanted to fix it on the 50 cal, but the maxim just does not need to be more survivable than it already is.

So the maxim is a subpar mg because of the 6 man squad to balance out its survival but ALSO has a death loop to balance out the 6 man crew? Shouldnt it be one or the other? Cause the maxim sure as shit isnt good enough for both, not after that ole triple nerf when penals got buffed.

Why not make sustained fire a toggle (kinda like the old USF lmg ability for rifles) that requires a reload on turning it on and off and make it slow/immobile and remove supression from the normal mode? Then it can be a pseudo lmg/ assault LMG/ dps support weapon or a defensive weapon but not both at the same time.

Then fix the damn deathloop because "if you get flanked you should lose your only advantage and 100% of the time lose the crew and gun" shouldnt be a balanceing factor

You're right, I forgot about the 50 cal. It's really the fast set-up/teardown mgs (maxim, dshk, 50 cal) vs the slow defensive mgs (mg42, mg34, vickers)



I can see your argument if you wanted to fix it on the 50 cal, but the maxim just does not need to be more survivable than it already is.

I think 50 cal is all right as well. It is a very strong mg and I hear some players saying that it should be nerfed even if it is all right IMO. If it got a buff like that, it would couse a nerf to its performance.

So the maxim is a subpar mg because of the 6 man squad to balance out its survival but ALSO has a death loop to balance out the 6 man crew? Shouldnt it be one or the other? Cause the maxim sure as shit isnt good enough for both, not after that ole triple nerf when penals got buffed.

-Snip-

Then fix the damn deathloop because "if you get flanked you should lose your only advantage and 100% of the time lose the crew and gun" shouldnt be a balanceing factor

^ This guy gets it

Honest to god the most boring unit in the game. If the Maxim isn't op to you, ask yrself why noone evee spammed any other MG in this game. Fckng Maxim spammers

If the maxim is still OP to you, I think you are several patches behind man...

Anyone thinking the maxim is shit is free to 1vs1 me.

Is it complete heresy to suggest the maxim not be a 6 man squad and function roughly equal to the other MGs (even if it doesn't insta-suppress like the MG42). Or is 6 a divine number for Sov?

Also, what's up with HMGs able to shoot units outside their fire arc? It's happened about a dozen times now where all units in the squad are clearly and obviously outside the firing arc, yet are shot at (they weren't already getting shot before, I mean they walk up to like where their grenade's range barely overlaps with the firing arc) and get shot at.

Does "higher terrain" give a range bonus that's not shown? And does this apply to hills as well as building-garrisons? Or is the visual indicator just not accurate?

Tangential to topic:

Learning about this game at this stage is so infuriatingly difficult because it's gone through so many changes that you're left asking others how stuff works (and hope they know). Every time I read an argument in these forums I learn some weird hidden pseudo mechanic I didn't know was intended (I thought the teleportation thing was a visual/animation bug). I don't even know what units actually do more damage than each other since there's RNG and a host of factors that change overall DPS and reading in game descriptions is an exercise in futility.

Even the most recent patch is like 5+ actual iterations where you (if reading the official notes) have to keep track of the changes made in iteration 1 compared to what was reverted or changed further in later iterations. I watched tightrope's video on it (good videos btw) and even he had to edit and interrupt himself in his video to discuss changes made in that time frame. It was like a joke, cue exzibit/matroska doll meme here.

A few weeks ago I replayed a random mission from the original campaign and it may as well be a completely different installment in the CoH franchise since the units have different abilities and parameters (glorious old maxim arc, lol).

As a side note, MG42 spam (depending on one's definition of spam) is definitely a thing, especially in team games against multiple Ost opponents. In some maps, particularly long narrow ones, you can basically just start building mortars at the start because you already know there's 4+ MG42s out in the field. I won't even mention what machine-gun hell it is if they decide to spam bunkers too.

I don't think I ever encountered someone who _only_ built mg42s, but I've never encountered _only_ maxims either so eh.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I'll just assume I'm horribly wrong and need to l2p, but if you actually care about random scrub input, then there you go.

Then again the recent "banter" in larger team games I've been in have all taught me that almost everyone in this community is a d-bag and should be thrown off a cliff. Maybe I'll just turn into a perma 1v1 player.

Is it complete heresy to suggest the maxim not be a 6 man squad and function roughly equal to the other MGs (even if it doesn't insta-suppress like the MG42). Or is 6 a divine number for Sov?

Classic sign of an RTS game. Asking any question instills fear.

Learning about this game at this stage is so infuriatingly difficult because it's gone through so many changes that you're left asking others how stuff works (and hope they know). Every time I read an argument in these forums I learn some weird hidden pseudo mechanic I didn't know was intended (I thought the teleportation thing was a visual/animation bug). I don't even know what units actually do more damage than each other since there's RNG and a host of factors that change overall DPS and reading in game descriptions is an exercise in futility.

Add RNG to this and it is very hard to get a feel for how things work without a lot of testing and reading.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I'll just assume I'm horribly wrong and need to l2p, but if you actually care about random scrub input, then there you go.

Then again the recent "banter" in larger team games I've been in have all taught me that almost everyone in this community is a d-bag and should be thrown off a cliff. Maybe I'll just turn into a perma 1v1 player.

You are not wrong. And anyone who says you are without trying to help you is a psuedo intellectual d-bag. So just ignore them.

Everyone on this site will tell you to play 1v1. And you probably should at some point. But the less team mates you have the more abilities, stats, commanders you need to master. Do not feel any pressure to start too soon.

Classic sign of an RTS game. Asking any question instills fear.

Had to deal with Warhammer (tabletop) people before so I tread cautiously, haha.

Add RNG to this and it is very hard to get a feel for how things work without a lot of testing and reading.

Pretty much. Even in games like Age of Empires 2, there are hidden stats, so testing is still required for absolute certainty, but there things are pretty deterministic or direct. I appreciate the level of complexity CoH2 provides -- things like accuracy based on range based on cover based on direction based on ... etc., but it definitely means learning what works and what doesn't puts and incredibly high initial learning curve. In some cases, even doing a controlled trial over dozens of cases leaves you unsure of how things work.

Completely aside, the complexity and layers of this game make it so it could easily be turned into a very detailed turn based rpg/tactics type of game like Silent Storm or Jagged Alliance.

You are not wrong. And anyone who says you are without trying to help you is a psuedo intellectual d-bag. So just ignore them.

Everyone on this site will tell you to play 1v1. And you probably should at some point. But the less team mates you have the more abilities, stats, commanders you need to master. Do not feel any pressure to start too soon.

Thanks m80, and I do try to play the full range of game modes (well, not custom maps/mods, but in terms of 1v1 ~ 4v4) in part to try to learn what the game's like and how things pan out differently. 4v4 games give huuuuge tank battles and they can be fun, though they're hectic. The uhh... chat on the other hand... it ranges from typical profanity to some very confusing language-barrier things.

One of the good thing in the design of COH2 was that it moved pass unnecessary the complexity of COH1 where unit where using individual rules (like different types of armor on infantry).

Unfortunately in the late patches it seems that it becoming a trend for unit to have individual stats instead of following similar "rules".

For instance:
Reinforcement cost has stopped following the rule.
Reinforcement time has stopped following the rule.
Build time has stopped following the rule.
There are different solutions for the performance of picked up weapons.
and the least goes on.

It would be allot better for the game if the rules and mechanism where kept simple and "rules" had few exemptions.