What is the weakness from Jackson?

jagd wolfe ullumulu hoshi and others axis defenders really guys? jackson now is so much problem for u? U talk about tank destroyers spam but what can else usf ? Pls tell me ? poor e8? or maybe pershing aka comet ?

Usf finnaly can do something in late game and its cool now i can chose airborne company and be calm because my only tank destoyer is not a paper anymore.

Someone said jagpanzer is weak because 180 penetration, u know even something with 150 penetration can easliy penetrate evry alies tank and maybe only is2 is problem but this tank is rarely seen.

And why u guys have so much pain for that maybe jackson can be one of the best tank destroyers, if u ask me firefly is better i have no idea why this noob ulumule make thread about usf but no about brits but nevermind

This one tank must handle usf late game and so pls dont talk bullshit like someone said usf has bazzokas and at gun so dont need good tank destroyer jesus what a joke

jp4 will win with jackson because egist something like reload time and if im not wrong jp4 fire faster

Even if jackson is better that jp4 then okw have many other late game options

jackson have so many tasks, fight with medium fight with heavy and now its finnaly posible

USF used to be my worst faction. Post-patch I'm only losing USF games vs top 50 to 80 Wehrmacht players and USF is my highest ranked and highest win-rate faction, so I wouldn't quite consider myself as an "Axis defender". Unlike you, I play all factions, which gives me a more balanced perspective.

My weakness with Soviets is that often my SU85s get circle-strafed or start derping because of a branch or a pebble. The Jackson, however, is truly a perfect tank destroyer. Costs slightly more than SU85 but it isn't a slow and clumsy pathing nightmare. P4/Stugs flanking me? Nvm I'll run away haha. No other tank destroyer has such an easy time getting out of dangerous situations - which is the whole argument the other side is making.

The argument isn't that the USF doesn't deserve an excellent tank destroyer. It's simply that the Jackson's combination of stats - penetration, range, and speed/acceleration are simply too good for its cost. And this combination is far more valuable than raw DPS because only noobs like "some one" will stand still and let Stugs 1vs1 his M36. Any decent and reasonable player simply abuses the combination of range and speed to kite any and all Axis vehicles to death.

In fact, no other tank destroyer has that combination of strengths - SU85 and JP4 have better dps but are slow-rotating pathing idiots. Sure, jp4 has good front armour - but with such great speed, the Jackson either doesn't get hit or can easily escape if it needs to. Pre-patch Firefly was easily the best tank destroyer in the game because its combination of skills - high pen, bonus damage, OP stun rockets was way too ridiculous for its cost. To be fair in evaluation, the Jackson definitely isn't in that same spot of "Super OP" - but it's clearly the no 1 Tank Destroyer in the game right now.

Oh, the irony.

So, from what I gathered from this thread, the Jackson is supposed to be a counter to heavies as bazookas and AT gun cover mediums. However, I've played a lot with USF lately and to me it seems that the pen (much lower than 100%) and accuracy of the Jacksons just don't cut it against heavies:

KT: 69%/64%/59% | with HVAP: 80%/75%/66%
Panther: 81%/75%/68% | with HVAP: 94%/88%/78%
Tiger: 87%/80%/73% | with HVAP: 100%/93%/83%

So, the only time where the Jackson can, as you say, 100% pen a heavy/largely armored medium is with HVAPs at near range, where paks/raketens/fausts/mines can significantly hinder your ability to push. Not to mention the "high accuracy" that I just don't see in my matches, you'll have to bring numbers in the discussion if you really want to convince me and others of this. I honestly think SU85s and FFs to be better at their roles with higher rate of fire and self-spotting for the former and sick damage bursts, high accuracy and disable for the latter.

About the topic of the discussion, in my opinion the weaknesses of the Jackson are its low armor, need for a spotter to fully utilize its range, need of munis and vet for HVAP to reliably pen heavies, low burst damage compared to the FF. And inability to even touch infantry, but that's a given with allied TDs.

So you are telling me that jackson "don't cut it against heavies"
So i guess that Panther, which has the same exact penetration "don't cut it against heavies", and pak that has lower penetration "don't cut it against heavies".
Also tiger "don't cut it against heavies"...hell nothing "cut it against heavies".
Considering that both allies and axis have 375 armor vehicles and that apparently only hvap jackson can manage to get a decent penetration, well that's a big plus isn't it ?

You had all stats there and decided to post those and provide an argument butchered by the simple fact that you bitch about a level of penetration that axis can't even reach without doctrines.
I'm not surprised tho, you couldn't distinguish clear hyperbole..so i wasn't exactly betting my money on you being a genius.

0.75 moving accuracy ? higher base accuracy than both panther and stug ?
It's the 0.04/0.064 accuracy model (FF, Jackson, su85), the best in game and a wet dream for 90% of axis vehicles.

I won't even dive into ridicolous trash claims..if you think those base pen values aren't reliable you are either high/drunk or highly biased.

all the vet nerf ? (it has fixed turret and is worse than su 85)

Oh yes they gave it 20% more accuracy instead of the armor increase by vet, which i highly doubt is any reason for it being any worse at all.

Please look at the patch notes again, jp4s vet was changed.

Also what are you on? The Jackson vulnerable to a 222? Get outta here

Besides the single rear armor hit from the 222 you can clearly see that they pen the jackson quite regularly from the front. Which indeed makes it vulnerable to light cannons, even from the front. (This does ofcourse not mean that a 222 is a counter to it, it just proves how poor its armor is. And thats its biggest weakness.)

...
Not to mention the "high accuracy" that I just don't see in my matches, you'll have to bring numbers in the discussion if you really want to convince me and others of this.
...

Simply multiply accuracy with Target size and calculate them yourself. Trust me its in high 90% even at max range.

...
And thats its biggest weakness.
...

Armor:
Panther 320
JP 230
FF 160
Stug 140
Su-85 140
M36 130
M10 120
Su-76 70

Unless you consider 10 armor a significant it would say its about average.

LUL the disinformation here XD
I would pull out 222 20mm and ostwind 37mm penetration as well as dps versus jackson and jadgpanzer 4 rof (that isn't 20% faster)...but it's not like i'm expecting a non biased answer.

This is exactly why nobody on this forum takes you seriously. All you do is scream bias. You do not disprove anyone, you do not provide any good counter arguments. And you call anyone who opposes anything that isnt in axis favor biased.

Literally feminist behavior.

So, the only time where the Jackson can, as you say, 100% pen a heavy/largely armored medium is with HVAPs at near range, where paks/raketens/fausts/mines can significantly hinder your ability to push. Not to mention the "high accuracy" that I just don't see in my matches, you'll have to bring numbers in the discussion if you really want to convince me and others of this.

FFS WHy should i use mines, AT guns, and shreck Fu ck it . I wanna build a axis tank and kill eveythng with it without any threat!!!

Oh yes they gave it 20% more accuracy instead of the armor increase by vet, which i highly doubt is any reason for it being any worse at all.

lol did u miss al the other ?
Jagdpanzer IV
The Jagdpanzer veterancy bonuses and abilities have been adjusted to be more in-line with other vehicles.

Camouflage reveal radius from 10 to 20
Veterancy 2 armour and sight bonus removed
Veterancy 2 now increases accuracy by 20%
Veterancy 5 ambush modifiers from +150% to +25%

FFS WHy should i use mines, AT guns, and shreck Fu ck it . I wanna build a axis tank and kill eveythng with it without any threat!!!

mines for TD wow are high ? why should i ever bring a TD deep in enemy lines ? u know no need to nerf ele and jagdt just use mine lol great counter

USF used to be my worst faction. Post-patch I'm only losing USF games vs top 50 to 80 Wehrmacht players and USF is my highest ranked and highest win-rate faction, so I wouldn't quite consider myself as an "Axis defender". Unlike you, I play all factions, which gives me a more balanced perspective.

My weakness with Soviets is that often my SU85s get circle-strafed or start derping because of a branch or a pebble. The Jackson, however, is truly a perfect tank destroyer. Costs slightly more than SU85 but it isn't a slow and clumsy pathing nightmare. P4/Stugs flanking me? Nvm I'll run away haha. No other tank destroyer has such an easy time getting out of dangerous situations - which is the whole argument the other side is making.

The argument isn't that the USF doesn't deserve an excellent tank destroyer. It's simply that the Jackson's combination of stats - penetration, range, and speed/acceleration are simply too good for its cost. And this combination is far more valuable than raw DPS because only noobs like "some one" will stand still and let Stugs 1vs1 his M36. Any decent and reasonable player simply abuses the combination of range and speed to kite any and all Axis vehicles to death.

In fact, no other tank destroyer has that combination of strengths - SU85 and JP4 have better dps but are slow-rotating pathing idiots. Sure, jp4 has good front armour - but with such great speed, the Jackson either doesn't get hit or can easily escape if it needs to. Pre-patch Firefly was easily the best tank destroyer in the game because its combination of skills - high pen, bonus damage, OP stun rockets was way too ridiculous for its cost. To be fair in evaluation, the Jackson definitely isn't in that same spot of "Super OP" - but it's clearly the no 1 Tank Destroyer in the game right now.

if u are 1vs1 player i understand that usf is strong faction but in teamgames usf really deserve for jackson with stats like now i mean i get it usf is early faction and usf lategame should be weak because someone in relic decide that but there is no way to end game 4vs4 before lategame
People compare units here 1vs1 WRONG
Jackson spam have no sense
maybe this is funny but when i can get more than 2 jacksons but i know my micro dont let me i decide to give third jackson for free to another player or wait for pershing
Jackson synergy with other t4 units is not that great
People cry about panther in bad spot but in 4vs4 mode panther horde is very dangerus and can deal with infantry squads
Jackson with curent state give u a better chance to survive late game madnes because your best option is to get pershing with jackson but this is counter by jagtiger or ele so people spam arty and infantry

Look at OKW at 4vs4 mode in lategame there is so many opiton so many units with good synergy panther spam
panzer and jagpanzer, kingtiger and jagpanzer, and you as usf jackson and jackson ?
If u dont know how fight against jackson sucured by another jackson? then i dont know how fight against jagtiger secured by panther

if u are 1vs1 player i understand that usf is strong faction but in teamgames usf really deserve for jackson with stats like now i mean i get it usf is early faction and usf lategame should be weak because someone in relic decide that but there is no way to end game 4vs4 before lategame
People compare units here 1vs1 WRONG
Jackson spam have no sense
maybe this is funny but when i can get more than 2 jacksons but i know my micro dont let me i decide to give third jackson for free to another player or wait for pershing
Jackson synergy with other t4 units is not that great
People cry about panther in bad spot but in 4vs4 mode panther horde is very dangerus and can deal with infantry squads
Jackson with curent state give u a better chance to survive late game madnes because your best option is to get pershing with jackson but this is counter by jagtiger or ele so people spam arty and infantry

Look at OKW at 4vs4 mode in lategame there is so many opiton so many units with good synergy panther spam
panzer and jagpanzer, kingtiger and jagpanzer, and you as usf jackson and jackson ?
If u dont know how fight against jackson sucured by another jackson? then i dont know how fight against jagtiger secured by panther

lel...there have someone no other argues and tell us the panther is strong in 4v4.

you know what? thats is right...but they are was made weaker and now are in a spot where allies have no problem to counter them. they all get so nice TDs ...and the king of TDs...the jackson...which is in all gamemodes superior.

and why? because the shredd axis armor from far range and are so mobil to kitt them or run away if it dangerous. some paks, little bit infantery and 4 jackson would stopp 7-8 panthers...

i stopped yesterday with 3 jackson the attack from 3 panther, KT and tiger ace. ...easily,..only one jackson died...how did i made this?? yeah..spot them and the kitt all tanks, because of high mobilty, accu while moving and high range.

you only need a good map without many shootblockers and areal to drive...but thats not that hard...its so funny and easy cheese that is unbelievable.

i stopped yesterday with 3 jackson the attack from 3 panther, KT and tiger ace. ...easily,..only one jackson died...how did i made this?? yeah..spot them and the kitt all tanks, because of high mobilty, accu while moving and high range.

you only need a good map without many shootblockers and areal to drive...but thats not that hard...its so funny and easy cheese that is unbelievable.

Mate, your experience in the game is worth nothing in balance discussions. You are too bad.

Mate, your experience in the game is worth nothing in balance discussions. You are too bad.

No no USF / Jackson OP, he learnt that from his 4500 4v4 USF Rank

Jacksons weakness is that there's basically nothing bigger. It's the end of the line for usf at, and it doesn't really have anything to screen for it (shermans are too squishy). Riflemen's snare is also the slowest in the game after brits' (hue hue). This means it needs diligent support and micro just like the other TDs you mentioned.

EDIT: It also gets penned by literally anything other than small arms lol

Jacksons weakness is that there's basically nothing bigger. It's the end of the line for usf at, and it doesn't really have anything to screen for it (shermans are too squishy). Riflemen's snare is also the slowest in the game after brits' (hue hue). This means it needs diligent support and micro just like the other TDs you mentioned.

EDIT: It also gets penned by literally anything other than small arms lol

Easiest way to explain it would be, the weakness of the Jackson is that you have to play USF.

lel...there have someone no other argues and tell us the panther is strong in 4v4.

you know what? thats is right...but they are was made weaker and now are in a spot where allies have no problem to counter them. they all get so nice TDs ...and the king of TDs...the jackson...which is in all gamemodes superior.

and why? because the shredd axis armor from far range and are so mobil to kitt them or run away if it dangerous. some paks, little bit infantery and 4 jackson would stopp 7-8 panthers...

i stopped yesterday with 3 jackson the attack from 3 panther, KT and tiger ace. ...easily,..only one jackson died...how did i made this?? yeah..spot them and the kitt all tanks, because of high mobilty, accu while moving and high range.

you only need a good map without many shootblockers and areal to drive...but thats not that hard...its so funny and easy cheese that is unbelievable.

3 jacksons vs 3 panthers KT and tiger ace and u win ?
I think u fight against helpinghans and thats the reason he unistal this game right ?

If nerf more jackson
I think we need buff other USF AT
IMO 1 bazooka I suggest buff Bazooka Deflection Dmg
my reason When I play Soviet PTRS when Fight Some High Armor Tank like Panther King tiger PTRS Deflection dmg help for perfrom At grenade to Snare them after get some dmg
2 PTRS form Guard get Minimum dmg better than Bazooka by faster Rate of Fire (PTRS Cooldown + Aim time About 3.5-4.5 sec with deflection 13 per shot (Con ptrs 8 dmg ) Compare bazooka Cooldown+ Aim time 7 sec with 13.5 dmg per deflection shot )
This idea really sure is nightmare for Pz4
2 All AT gun (m1-57mm Pak40 Zis-3 Rak 6P-ATgun)
get 80 dmg when deflection shot (or less than 50% deflection dmg)
my reason in First COH AT gun have this and help to repel some heavy armor
take back to repair

This is IMO with bad grammar if jackson got nerf to soft counter Panther

I think that the best balance for the Jackson would be to revert it's HP buff, but give it a smoke screen and it's 200 dmg back. This way it will be a frail TD, but can strike hard and disappear.

Instead of HVAP round, Jackson should have a permanent upgrade.

Vanilla Jackson from T3 could be adjusted to only be good vs medium. Then an individual upgrade would make it better vs heavies but losing powerness vs medium.

Anyway, in the current USF format design the Jackson will never be balanced. I mean, it is as per design supposed to counter medium, heavies and super heavies for the only reason USF does not have anything else to do so. So how can you balance it?

The other option is to bring back the vcoh barrel upgrade on the sherman here again as an individual upgrade. So you can upgrade your sherman to fight mediums and then have the Jackson only specialized vs heavies and super heavies. In fact what Mr.Smith and the mod team introduced with the mechanized doctrine but as stock option for the sherman with a AT power buff. Those upgraded shermans would lose their IA power as an exhange.

Instead of HVAP round, Jackson should have a permanent upgrade.

Vanilla Jackson from T3 could be adjusted to only be good vs medium. Then an individual upgrade would make it better vs heavies but losing powerness vs medium.

I'm just thinking of any kind of real life scenario where this would make sense somehow. A tank that is good against other heavies but not good vs weak. The only thing that came to my mind would be some kind of a heavier cannon that slowed down the tank because of weight. But usually there are no upgrades that nerf a unit.

Other than that we could simply say the cannon gets so strong, that the bullet will just fly in medium tanks and leave it on the other side without exploding. Haha.