fixing okw taking form vcoh

Right now okw has some problem, not about Up or OP faction/unit but about identity as a faction and units (pup chen doesn't work well at at gun most is just hit-and-run, volks are supposed to be meat shield but with ober coming so late they need buff to work, and we see were all of that lead), I propose some changes that will most likely fix the faction :

• volks stg to fuer storm doc, and they get 3 stg instead of 2 for 80 mun
  
  
• mp 40 as baseline upgrade for 50 mun (they keep inc granade at the start and they lose it if they upgrade)
  
  
• pupchen changed to pack 38 cost 300mp less pen higher fire rate (with 60 range and no retreat first strike bonus out of stealth with more pen, accuracy and reload) vet bonus could be reworked too
  
  
• ober moved to tier 1 for 360 mp and no mg 34 till tier 3 unlock
  
  
• infrared halftruck moved to mech and stuka moved to tier 3 fuel cost form 100 to 85
  
  
• mg 34 and pack 38 unlock after first truck call in (no need to place it)
  
  
• isg (leig.18) buffed accuracy and damage vs garrison units (so it work by killing single model with low aoe vs the mortar aoe damage)
  
  this would make the faction very similar to vcoh werm keeping volks weak and used to shield while ober would deal the damage, stuka would come later but a bit cheaper, with this we could even let the tier be linear by reducing their cost a bit

Faction is ok as it is, it just need minimal tweaks/changes:
- revert volks veterancy changes to pre DBP and tone down vet 4-5 accuracy/cooldown bonuses to 10% instead of 15/20, revert DB0 buff to vet 3 RA.
- give isg an aoe buff (to wehr mortar stats) and add 50 mp to the cost
- reduce stuka zu fuss cost to 75 fuel, on line with other rocket artillery (because now it can get one shotted and can't one shot team weapons, and still kept ugly situational creeping barrage (it could keep 100 fuel price tag if it had a circular barrage).
- give sturms 120 muni double shreck
- cut 10-15 fuel from nerfed jadgpanzer4
- (optional) somehow make mp40 volks less of a meme and more of a combat unit.
- restore old obersoldaten cost to 400 mp and restore veterancy 3 RA bonus.

The only true issue is healing...healing is locked in the first tier, which kinda makes mech build, now less shocky because of luchs nerf, crippled.

I think starting hq could upgrade medics, and the red cross in BTG could be replaced by an okw cross (okw), with a frp upgrade that transfer medics when active.

I think these changes look good, but The main problem with OKW is tech.

Paying 55 fuel and 400 mp just to get medics is absolutely ludicrous. If you choose to get med truck as your first option, you forgoe any good light vehicles, If you do get the med truck, the units coming out of it are incredibly average and usually don't put enough pressure on your opponent to justify the cost.

I really hope relic will let the balance team rework OKW, they have alot of cool units and a good playstyle, but getting mabye 1 or two more units and a better tech structure could make them amazing instead of frustrating for players and opponents(same strats everygame)

I do like having the raketen in game though, just a pak 40 for later.

Faction is ok as it is, it just need minimal tweaks/changes:
- revert volks veterancy changes to pre DBP and tone down vet 4-5 accuracy/cooldown bonuses to 10% instead of 15/20, revert DB0 buff to vet 3 RA.
- give isg an aoe buff (to wehr mortar stats) and add 50 mp to the cost
- reduce stuka zu fuss cost to 75 fuel, on line with other changes
- give sturms 120 muni double shreck
- cut 10-15 fuel from nerfed jadgpanzer4
- (optional) somehow make mp40 volks less of a meme and more of a combat unit.
- restore old obersoldaten cost to 400 mp and restore veterancy 3 RA bonus.

this would just bring back the other problems, volks too strong at vet 5,ober never used cause cost too much/volks can do the same work, strums become op at units with their vet and ability to repair, stuka comes too early for 75 fuel (compare it to kat and pazer w. they both come at the last tier)
volks mp are bad only cause of the moving accuracy penality they deal good damage idf they stand still , just buff the moving cooldown accuracy to 1 and reduce the normal accuracy accordingly

I think these changes look good, but The main problem with OKW is tech.

Paying 55 fuel and 400 mp just to get medics is absolutely ludicrous. If you choose to get med truck as your first option, you forgoe any good light vehicles, If you do get the med truck, the units coming out of it are incredibly average and usually don't put enough pressure on your opponent to justify the cost.

I really hope relic will let the balance team rework OKW, they have alot of cool units and a good playstyle, but getting mabye 1 or two more units and a better tech structure could make them amazing instead of frustrating for players and opponents(same strats everygame)

I do like having the raketen in game though, just a pak 40 for later.

with linear teching medic could be made 200 mp

this would just bring back the other problems, volks too strong at vet 5,ober never used cause cost too much/volks can do the same work, strums become op at units with their vet and ability to repair, stuka comes too early for 75 fuel (compare it to kat and pazer w. they both come at the last tier)
volks mp are bad only cause of the moving accuracy penality they deal good damage idf they stand still , just buff the moving cooldown accuracy to 1 and reduce the normal accuracy accordingly

-Volks already were nerfed with flame grenade cooldown, and -5/10% at vet 5 accuracy/cooldown is a lot, especially since we are talking about a squad 3 men bolt action with average damage and high accuracy/cooldown.
Just do the math, it's already a significant reduction as it doesn't apply just to stg and is a lategame bonus whoch applies to already boosted numbers (so a -x% reduction is more significant than it looks).
It's not like modders did any kind of math when they simply REMOVED vet bonuses, this is why actual volks are pathetic without stg and mediocre with stg way beyond anything that can be justified by a STILL-NOT-CHEAP at all cost.

- pls let's end the propaganda of obers never used, obers were always used, always kept alive to high vet and always proficient.
We can look at luvnest/hans/etc build orders, you will always find those.
If there's one unit that has never ever been UP at all that's obers.
The only modes that never saw obers are 3 and 4s, because of the arty spam (AND IT'S NOT LIKE IT CHANGED ANYTHING LUL)

- how the hell would sturm be op ?, you are just getting in double handheld at like any other factions at infantry, including panzergrens, that if anything are just better with better RA with vet and AI utility

- 85 fuel then, but stuka MUST be mutually exclusive with isg, unless backteching is done, for obvious reasons.

-what's the issue with starting hq medic upgrade transfering to btg with frp ?

-volks are simply bad, in dbp without stg 250 mp/25 lose to cons 240/20 at max vet 5 to 3...
If volks must be so trash they must be cheaper, is that simple..but toning down vet 4/5 like that is already a good solution.

with linear teching medic could be made 200 mp

I think the nonlinear teching is fine, but medics should be purchasable from the Hq after you build any truck, rather than only purchasable after the med truck is up. It would also be good to see more commander variation, in that you could go for infantry callin's with mech tech and heal them, or opt for obers with stgs and delay tier 4. Stuff like that would make the faction better and more like the most high functioning faction soviets.

I propose some changes that will most likely fix the faction

Imo instead of another redesign long lasting issue should take priority over most other things.

Those issues include:
Pop
XP values
Vet abilities
Vet bonuses
Commander abilities
Commander design
built times
reinforcement costs
and so on...

my suggestion about OKW, after those issues are fixed, would be something like this:
Show Spoiler

I think the nonlinear teching is fine, but medics should be purchasable from the Hq after you build any truck, rather than only purchasable after the med truck is up.

This +1000000
Frp could spawn medics to btg if those are already teched at main hq.

my suggestion about OKW, after those issues are fixed, would be something like this:
Show Spoiler

this work too , eralier weaker ober and volks finally have a role (close range) when upgraded , but what about the pupchen right now it doesnt work as an at gun
what i opted for was less changes overall and easy fix not a full rework

Imo instead of another redesign long lasting issue should take priority over most other things.

Those issues include:
Pop
XP values
Vet abilities
Vet bonuses
Commander abilities
Commander design
built times
reinforcement costs
and so on...

my suggestion about OKW would be something like this:
Show Spoiler

That's too much of a big work there, several changes to be approved by relic, several new meta/matchup options to test... let's limit ourself to
- reduce vet 5 co requirements to other factions vet 3 equivalent
- find a middle ground between the trashy dbp volks and pre patch volks by toning down pre nerf veterancy bonuses that got previously removed
- buff isg
- cut jadgpanzer 4/stuka cost
- move medics to base
...and any other needed improvement/buff/nerf/nonradical change.

this work too , eralier weaker ober and volks finally have a role (close range) when upgraded , but what about the pupchen right now it doesnt work as an at gun

Instead of an atg, turn it into a heavier hand held weapon type. Lower damage, deflection damage but high responses times, lower range but very difficult to circle strafe.

Will need some resistance to Ballistic (maybe explosives also) weapons and the move while cloaked will probably have to go.

It could work if the mp40 upgrade behaves exactly like firestorm one, obers come early enougb and okw gets some sort of mobile reinforcement point like opel blitz.

You should probably make some light vehicles rushable but expensive to allow for shock value, and some light behicles ultra-delayed but efficient (sort of how usf greyhound is designed). That way there is enough room to see all okw light vehicles have a role, rather than have everybody go for luchs and ignore anything else.

If this works , it could be an interesting design that allows for multiple strats even if okw twch gets linearised (to address the medic issue).

Good accuracy bad aoe indirect fire is frustrating bad design, as it boils the indirect fire game down to the number of models of the enemy squad, rather tham the squad formation.

It could work if the mp40 upgrade behaves exactly like firestorm one, obers come early enougb and okw gets some sort of mobile reinforcement point like opel blitz.

You should probably make some light vehicles rushable but expensive to allow for shock value, and some light behicles ultra-delayed but efficient (sort of how usf greyhound is designed). That way there is enough room to see all okw light vehicles have a role, rather than have everybody go for luchs and ignore anything else.

If this works , it could be an interesting design that allows for multiple strats even if okw twch gets linearised (to address the medic issue).

Good accuracy bad aoe indirect fire is frustrating bad design, as it boils the indirect fire game down to the number of models of the enemy squad, rather tham the squad formation.

yea but its not "lol random wipe cause aoe" you can just retreat when the model are low but i guess you couls make it have normal aoe (like the pack) or make it litteraly like the pack woth 4 men

....stuff & more stuff

I kind of liked the old OKW more than the new, particularly the PIV. The pre-nerf PIV felt like a mini-KT, the new one feels like another T34/85. OKW had an identity with really good late-game armor. Maybe that didn't fit with where people wanted it to go but it had it.

The nerf to the LEIG has made the raketen really vulnerable to indirect. I'm having a really hard time keeping the things crewed in 3's or 4's. Any time I can, I'll take a captured AT gun and salvage the raketen.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I don't think Volks are a problem. I think the bigger issue is that their armor isn't much better than Allied armor (in the current patch) and they can't build caches so the Allies always have more tanks and TD's.

It could work if the mp40 upgrade behaves exactly like firestorm one, obers come early enougb and okw gets some sort of mobile reinforcement point like opel blitz.
...

Think it would be much better if the set up truck behaved like Ostheer command bunkers allowing reinforcement. (as i described in the spoiler). Increase the role of Truck is rather important since currently there is little reason to built them outside of base.

One could even allow SWS truck reinforce but that would probably be too much for a unit coming so early (unless there was an upgrade involved).

I kind of liked the old OKW more than the new, particularly the PIV. The pre-nerf PIV felt like a mini-KT, the new one feels like another T34/85. OKW had an identity with really good late-game armor. Maybe that didn't fit with where people wanted it to go but it had it.

The nerf to the LEIG has made the raketen really vulnerable to indirect. I'm having a really hard time keeping the things crewed in 3's or 4's. Any time I can, I'll take a captured AT gun and salvage the raketen.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I don't think Volks are a problem. I think the bigger issue is that their armor isn't much better than Allied armor (in the current patch) and they can't build caches so the Allies always have more tanks and TD's.

i think volks dont have a role , they deal same damage as penal at long range - 1 man and deal half damage at close , wiht stg it does not fix anything as its asimple buff to all ranges so here it comes the problem , you cant make them strong at something , they just would just remain useless or op cause their weapon profile , by making them like vcoh (if you played it) volks would be strong at long range without upgrade and have access to inc granade or gain mp 40 for close range dps giving them a role woth smoke and normal granade , by putting stg on fuer doc we can buff them to bar lvl while still begin balanced and kepping the inc granade , volks become flexible and have ober deal the bulk at long range while volks ethier shield or flank

I've advocated for mp40s volks a long time...

Personally I don't think volks should get incendiary nades until they get their smg upgrade.

Standard nade on standard volks works well.

Personally I think OKW needs a shift in its stock unit selection. I wrote about it a bit about a year ago.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/59625/blueprints-for-making-okw-balance-possible

Similar ideas explored, but this was from pre-WBP. Still relevant IMO.

Show Spoiler

I've advocated for mp40s volks a long time...

Personally I don't think volks should get incendiary nades until they get their smg upgrade.

Standard nade on standard volks works well.

Personally I think OKW needs a shift in its stock unit selection. I wrote about it a bit about a year ago.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/59625/blueprints-for-making-okw-balance-possible

Similar ideas explored, but this was from pre-WBP. Still relevant IMO.

Show Spoiler

icendiary granade are need (at least eraly) cause they dont have anti garrisons, thats why when they get mp40 they lose them, this makes the mp 40 upgrade a tactical choice not a no brainer

icendiary granade are need (at least eraly) cause they dont have anti garrisons, thats why when they get mp40 they lose them, this makes the mp 40 upgrade a tactical choice not a no brainer

An mp40s upgrade for incendiary nades is just as much a tactical decision.

Personally I believe balancing efforts should try to eliminate the need for such crutches as incendiary nades. I still maintain that the lava nade is a kludge of a solution and actually prevents OKW from exploring any other measure for garrisons.
I mean USF has never had stock access to flames and they have to sidetech for nades and smoke while having to go up against mg42s.

Mind you I've always suggested that Sturms and isgs have access to stock smoke as well. You can't explore changing up volks nades without improved smoke access. At least the isg has it now.