[DBP] Recon Doctrine feedback thread

Intent of the changes

Recon doctrine is a light-armor doctrine that gives no access to the mobile artillery options that other commanders have. Since it does not cover USF's main weaknesses directly, the new commander has been redesigned to (hopefully) address those weaknesses indirectly.

In live version, the commander offers a lot of (weak) abilities too early, while offering mundane abilities too late (e.g., paradrop). We have sanitized the arrival time of Commander abilities, while also repurposing several of its abilities for the late-game

Greyhound

This unit is meant to anchor the entire doctrine together. Rather than being a run-of-the-mill rushed light vehicle, the Greyhound is repurposed to allow for sustained pressure from the moment it is on the field, until the end-of the game.

The unit will feel like a pre-nerf T-70 that comes late, in order to ensure that all factions have sufficient tools to survive contact with it when it arrives.

Pathfinders

The while Paratrooper-beacon synergy just doesn't work when the unit that is supposed to plant the beacon has such a niche role otherwise. Now, Pathfinders are meaner than ever, and fully combat-capable.

Support Paratrooper Drop

To allow for greater flexibility, the ability now drops one paratrooper squad and one AT gun. The paradrop might be too cheap. However, we will have to evaluate given the other restrictions that the commander imposes on the player.

Swapping out thompsons for bazookas was done partly for flavour and partly from preventing Recon doctrine from being a better Airborne doctrine.

Speaking of which, you might want to re-evaluate your perceptions about how powerful you consider the Airborne P-47 loiter to be, after the changes.

Raid Tactics

This is supposed to allow infantry to scout for your late-game tanks in order to get juicy hits in with your Jackson, etc. This helps covers a key USF weakness in lacking decent vision-giving squads in the late-game.

We will probably change the bonus from multiplicative to additive, to prevent Pathfinders from becoming too insane.

Cluster Bombs

We're considering whether to make this a mine-laying drop or keep it as a detonate-on-impact drop. The current version is detonate-on-impact due to time constraints when implementing the rest of the commander revamp changes.

One concern about mine-laying butterfly bombs is the potential for laying these ones is wiping retreating squads. Since it would be completely immersion-breaking to also paradrop warning signs from the air, any suggestions are welcome (e.g., allow only over friendly territory).

Best revamp imo.

Haven't tested enough to give feedback about balance, but the idea and changes look great.

Good job!

EDIT:With this revamp Airborne needs a tweak or it will be totally removed for players loadout. Right now Recon is like an improved version of airborne.

I like the cluster bombs and is probably the most fun ability in the commander.
The grey hound feels a little weak in the main gun damage but maybe that's intended.
Love the changes to pathfinders.
Didn't get to try paradrop but the cost reduction was a welcome sign.

Recon right now it's a very strong Commander, filling in niches that the USF Army sorely lacked, with plenty of options to scout ahead, displace support weapon walls as well as fill in their ATG needs in a pinch with the Paradrop.
I can't wait to use this Live, though I feel Airborne with cheaper Pathfinders and better P47s are evenly matched, any news on making Airborne drops also cost munitions?

I am loving this commander so much. You guys really hit an amazing spot with it and it feels good while not being op.

So the greyhound is basically supposed to come later than most other lights? I think it does feel pretty good that way. I've noticed that the main gun seems to be somewhat inconsistent, but that might just be rng playing tricks on me. I remember the first time I called it in it sniped a grenadier model from moderate range while on the move, and proceeded to miss pioneers and mg42 crews for the next several shots. Again, might just be rng. Since it and the paradrop both come pretty late, however, it's kind of awkward trying to hold on if you're trying to get a paradrop, as you either won't have at to defend against lights or you'll have redundant amounts when you get the airborne drop (especially if you give the paras zooks, which I really love so far). It's workable, but IMO notably awkward/strange, but I can't really see a way to solve that problem while keeping it balanced. I noticed that when I tried to target a garrisoned mg42 with the canister shot it didn't seem to want to fire or respond to my commands. Could be a possible bug maybe?

I'm loving the new paratroopers and the newly priced drop, and IMO it feels about right as 325 mp isn't crazy crazy cheap, and it comes with a pretty hefty muni cost as well.

Also loving the new pathfinder changes, makes them actually worth calling in and they don't take up a tenth of your army anymore.

The cluster bombs feel very fun and unique, but I really think they should stay as a detonate on impact. It's already a very powerful tool for breaking at walls and stunning tanks, so a instantly placeable s-mine field would probably be a little opieop, especially since usf has non doc major recon Not sure how I feel about it having green smoke, but I don't think it's gamebreaking/imbalanced (much better than no smoke- stuka db looking at you), and you should basically expect green smoke to be cluster bombs as soon as you see one of the commander's unique callin units. Allows for even more psychological play too I guess, along with I and R fake/real barrages.

Amazing Revamp.

Greyhound is a viable unit now, and the combat drop change is amazing as well. Exactly what I recommended


Those cluster bombs are so funny, due to their warning smoke being green, the enemy will think it is something harmless like a recon plane or a smoke barrage

Btw about the paratroopers from the combat drop: I noticed that the M1919 upgrade is available anywhere while the bazooka upgrade needs to be purchased in allied territory. Not sure if thats intended but honestly, it doesnt really matter as well ^^

I really hope you decide to switch the cluster bombs to cluster mines. It would make it a really useful and unique ability, and would help keep the points that are captured quickly.

Perhaps after they are dropped the smoke could remain for 45 seconds, or more, to give the enemy a warning that mines have recently been dropped in the area.

Butterfly bombs were great and very useful in COH1.

Amazing Revamp.
Those cluster bombs are so funny, due to their warning smoke being green, the enemy will think it is something harmless like a recon plane or a smoke barrage

They changed that, now red smoke.

They changed that, now red smoke.

Damn Would have been the perfect troll ability

Amazing Revamp.

Greyhound is a viable unit now, and the combat drop change is amazing as well. Exactly what I recommended


Those cluster bombs are so funny, due to their warning smoke being green, the enemy will think it is something harmless like a recon plane or a smoke barrage

Btw about the paratroopers from the combat drop: I noticed that the M1919 upgrade is available anywhere while the bazooka upgrade needs to be purchased in allied territory. Not sure if thats intended but honestly, it doesnt really matter as well ^^

That must be a bug, Paratroopers can upgrade anywhere as they are supposed to be dropped close to the frontlines, I'm really hyped to try this in automatch with a LT build.

I think the cluster bombs need another warning sign. Right now you only see them if you are looking right on the spot they are dropped. No sign on the minimap or callout from what I have heard.
Maybe let a bomber (or just the plane sound) flyover, so there's at least an acoustic warning, that something is happening.

The Greyhound uses the wrong weapon upgrade icon after getting the 50 cal (it shows an lmg-42).

Can you please make pathfinders 0cps. You can play with the stats to make them balanced or lock their sniper rifle behind 1cp or something. I just hate having too many rifles on the field before I reach 1 cp. I would gladly trade a rifleman squad for the pathfinder ability to put down a beacon.

Two thumbs up on the direction lots of cool stuff, I think just values and costs need fine tuning.

Recon Pathfinders- The artillery is very very good. You can use it to explode capping squads if your opponent isn't paying attention intenesely as there isn't even a verbal warning. I think Restricting it to A higher CP (8? so im constructive), adding 1 or two seconds delay, and creating a global cooldown like wc51 arty can help balance the new combat capacity of Pathfinders.

Greyhound- Its going to absolutely murder lone squads capping. I think making Canister exclusive with the MG upgun can help reduce potency. Also the cost should be at leat as much as a stuart,t70 since it's definately better or equal to those units.

Air drop-They seem A little cheap in the MP department, but idk how you guys calculate the value of those munitions in MP.

Can you please make pathfinders 0cps. You can play with the stats to make them balanced or lock their sniper rifle behind 1cp or something. I just hate having too many rifles on the field before I reach 1 cp. I would gladly trade a rifleman squad for the pathfinder ability to put down a beacon.

That would actually be really nice. I think the sniper should definitely be a free upgrade locked behind 1cp though. It would allow players to utilize the commander a lot better IMO, and everyone seems to want less riflespam, so it would offer another optional that effect.

The new commander is a good, very well thought out revision of the original.

The greyhound, while originally it felt too strong, seems okay at 5 cps. The canister has the potential to one shot units however. I am not sure if this is intended.

I really like the commander so far, but to me it seems that the recon part got a bit lost with the loss of the greyhound vet 3 sight bonus and the replacement of the recon package (which admittedly never worked right).

With this in mind, I'd like to suggest something for the recon paratroopers:

The lmg upgrade has always been a no brainer. I'd find it interesting to differentiate recon paras more from their airborne equivalent by getting rid of the double mg upgrade and offering something like a recon package similar to the g43 upgrade for panzerfussiliers. The upgrade would provide them with a good buff to sightrange and some accuracy and/or rate of fire bonuses to their carbines (since there is not really a replacement weapon that could be used like in the case of pf's g43s). It could also add 1 sniper rifle to the squad. If it feels too weak there could be an ability similar to tactical movement that allows them to dish out a bit more damage temporarily. One or even both weapon slots would have to be locked to avoid double bar squads.

It would be great to have a carbine squad that can be used tactically instead of another lmg squad on an a-move mission.

I really like the commander so far, but to me it seems that the recon part got a bit lost with the loss of the greyhound vet 3 sight bonus and the replacement of the recon package (which admittedly never worked right).

The recon element is still strong in the commander on the Pathfinder call-in, and also on the raid-tactics ability. The greyhound also still has amazing sight. It just no longer gets broken pre-nerf 222-scope sight at Vet3; and that's it.

The lmg upgrade has always been a no brainer. I'd find it interesting to differentiate recon paras more from their airborne equivalent by getting rid of the double mg upgrade and offering something like a recon package similar to the g43 upgrade for panzerfussiliers. The upgrade would provide them with a good buff to sightrange and some accuracy and/or rate of fire bonuses to their carbines (since there is not really a replacement weapon that could be used like in the case of pf's g43s). It could also add 1 sniper rifle to the squad. If it feels too weak there could be an ability similar to tactical movement that allows them to dish out a bit more damage temporarily. One or even both weapon slots would have to be locked to avoid double bar squads.

It would be great to have a carbine squad that can be used tactically instead of another lmg squad on an a-move mission.

I somehow feel that IR Pathfinders already fulfill that niche. Plus, we really don't have the time to experiment with newly introduced weapons etc.

I somehow feel that IR Pathfinders already fulfill that niche. Plus, we really don't have the time to experiment with newly introduced weapons etc.

It wouldn't be a new weapon, just rof/acc bonuses to the carbine, but I can understand that you guys are under a lot of time pressure and this is certainly not something that should be that high on the priority list. Thanks for all the work you guys put in

Would it be possible to give them more sight range or tactical movement as an ability when unupgraded maybe? They would lose the bonus sight/ability (tactical movement), if they are upgraded with lmgs or the zooks. That way the squad would be intersting to work with bars or just carbines to try new strats.

Have you looked at the canister shot? It does feel a bit too strong to me.

Have you looked at the canister shot? It does feel a bit too strong to me.

If you pick Recon, you probably don't have any munitions for anything else, including Bars. The Greyhound is supposed to be Recon Doctrine's end-game, and it should have a role at minute 40 when the Pak-wall is complete. Otherwise, people will just never pick recon after the novelty factor has worn off. Doctrines (just like factions) should simply not become obsolete past a certain time in the game.

If the Greyhound is overperforming for its timing, we we'll probably push its CP requirements to 6, 7, 8; however much it takes. Recon has no Priest, or Calliope or MHT or Pershing or M10 call-ins to offer.

I think Mr. Smith is on point.
With the Greyhound, Raid and other Munitions intensive skills as well as the paradrop, you won't get BARs unless you really get something like a cache and double munitions, you'd be stuck with M1 Garands for most of the game.