[DBP] Firestorm Doctrine feedback thread

Intent of the changes

The intent of the changes in the Firestorm doctrine was to create the opportunity for combined arms, where there was none. Instead of stacking the odds of the commander on the hetzer and the flamethrower, we have added smoke options and a mobile reinforcement option.

Ideally the set of changes will allow the Commander to be viable in open maps, while not being overwhelming in urban maps.

Volksgrenadier MP40 upgrade

The intent of this change is to allow players to designate support squads that will help a player advance their squads. Volksgrenadiers trade their powerful MP44 upgrade in order to gain smoke and a normal grenade.

Opel Blitz truck

The intent of the opel blitz truck is to allow players to have a mobile reinforcement option, which OKW normally lacks. This will hopefully favour both MedHQ and MechHQ openings, and it will allow the doctrine to press its aggressive playstyle.

Hetzer

The intent of the changes it to allow the unit to displace Paks, rather than become hardcountered by them due to its lack of turret. We will continue to monitor how the hetzer performs against retreating squads, since it's not our intent for a unit that cheap to be able to perform at such capacity.

The role of the Hetzer in the OKW arsenal is to have a reasonably lethal unit that outperforms the P4 in terms of AI, but is also more durable than the Luchs.

I like the changes on feuesturm. My concerns:

1. Opel Blitz truck may encourage blobing.

2. mp40 overlaping with stg44 upgrade. However being stg44 a general upgrade to volks in all range is not that bad.

3. I need more testing for hetzer, but dunno if its worth the price. With the amount antigarrison abilities you got with the commander and the need of tech I would always pick p4 instead of hetzer.

4. FPS drop with so much fire Kappa.

I have a absolutely stupid idea that is most likely over powered. Seeing their an ability solely for incendiary lieg rounds I think this can be improved. There must be more fire.
-Captured GrW 34s can also use incendiary rounds
-Lefh 18s are allowed to use incendiary rounds
*Left 18 incendiary barrage unable to target base sectors

Replace the Rocket Barrage with the Lefh 18

Additionally, should the volks MP 40 require a converted HQ? Their Assault Grenadier counterpart does not require teching.

The doctrine feels pretty good from my first couple tests, but the Accel/Decel on the Blitz feels a bit high for a unit that with such a short aura range.

Please ignore the "it needs more flame" posts.
Rhe commander has ALREADY enough flame/antigarrison ability/unit.

Any chance to replace incendiary barrage on a unit with a more solid and less situational ability, riegel mines for example (and change opel blitz with no upgradable version of ostheer halftrack (no, don't worry, no clown car okw, the closed ht with mg gunner).

Replacing the Opel with a SdKfz 251 Halftrack would be nice. I'd keep the flame projectors upgrade thematically, but probably OP unless cost adjusted.

Volksgrenadier MP40 upgrade

The intent of this change is to allow players to designate support squads that will help a player advance their squads. Volksgrenadiers trade their powerful MP44 upgrade in order to gain smoke and a normal grenade.

Objectively I find this to be an odd choice for firestorm. If anything it should be in this doctrine that they GAIN incendiary nades, not LOSE them. Thematically it just doesn't make sense.

And you know what my opinion concerning volks MP40s and normal grenades is by now...

Show Spoiler

I can see MP40 blobs becoming a massive problem in 4vs4s. It might be worth considering taking away the faust, so that there is another downside to upgrading to MP40s, beyond the lack of medium and long range (which isn't a problem if they are being spammed).

Other than that the changes are excellent and make this a really strong and worthwhile commander. One I can see being used a lot.

Objectively I find this to be an odd choice for firestorm. If anything it should be in this doctrine that they GAIN incendiary nades, not LOSE them. Thematically it just doesn't make sense.

And you know what my opinion concerning volks MP40s and normal grenades is by now...

Show Spoiler

Just to make sure EVERYONE understand

1) incendiary ability
2) flamethrower
3) incendiary barrage
4) incendiary tank
...

That's how you make a trash doctrine. Remember overwatch ?

I'd rather see Hetzer as a tough unit, with good armor, HP and AI for an increased cost, which can be only dealt with a vehicle or multiply AT guns. Of course, we don't want another Croc but it should be on pair with KV8 in terms of durability imo. It should be worth to call it, vet it and easy enough to keep alive in a late-game.

Overall the commander feels pretty good.
Flamethrower sturmpioneers are pretty strong in Urban maps but considering it's a weapon upgrade trade-off i think they're ok.
The Incendiary isg barrage is really good, maybe too good.
Mp40s felt fine i think getting a smoke grenade instead of a flame grenade is fine since they have plenty of other flame weapons now.
The opel truck is pretty neat i like all it's functions and will need to try it with a walking stuka since it cooldowns abilities to much.
The flame hetzer seems to be overperforming. I had one evaporating my conscript squads that were out in the open. Maybe that's the point since it doesn't have a turret but it night be too much.

Volksgrenadier MP40 upgrade

The intent of this change is to allow players to designate support squads that will help a player advance their squads. Volksgrenadiers trade their powerful MP44 upgrade in order to gain smoke and a normal grenade.

I think the MP40 upgrade is a bit strange. Although this might be overstepping some scope issues (being applied to Volks/Sturms in general), I'd like to suggest some changes:

Nondoctrinal: Volksgrenadiers get their standard HE grenade back, and Sturms get their vet 3 stun grenades (super under-used, nobody will miss it) replaced for a standard smoke grenade. StG44 package also gives one MP40 to reduce the far dps of the squad while improving near dps, giving the squad a more clearly defined CQC role as opposed to a "better at everything" upgrade.

andpleasefortheloveofgottimhimmelreplacethatuglystg44iconwiththisone
-->
...which is closer to this vanilla icon anyway.

Doctrinal: Firestorm doctrine's assault package (still 5x MP40s) allows Volks to throw Molotov cocktails (with normal grenade animations/windup) OR a blendkorper smoke grenade that share a timer with the standard HE grenade, mostly because incendiary grenades simply did not exist. The Molotov/Blendkorper ability replaces the Panzerfaust. Both of these grenades do DoT like the flamenade, are appropriate for the urban combat theme of the doctrine (one of them also acts as smoke), and finally has the added benefit of actually existing. If Blendkorper is too powerful, Molotov + StunNade or Smoke Grenade can work.

Also, I have some assets you may find useful:

Opel Blitz truck

The intent of the opel blitz truck is to allow players to have a mobile reinforcement option, which OKW normally lacks. This will hopefully favour both MedHQ and MechHQ openings, and it will allow the doctrine to press its aggressive playstyle.

Although a commendable goal, there are a two issues with this approach:

• Lacks a skin for OKW
  
• Essential part of aggressive playstyle locked behind a doctrine
  

A minor gripe for some, but a major immersion breaker for others. As it stands, the best skin for OKW would probably be the Panzergrau skin, since the sWS halftracks seem to rock a darker version of Panzergrau. Preferably Relic can simply make a unique, darker Panzergrau to match the same shade as the sWS (shouldn't be too hard, anybody can toy with the brightness and color balance settings). That said, it should be easily fixable, Relic willing.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The Stuka zu Fuss HT has animations for holding squads that can fire out of it. Simply lower the unit cost (to maybe 50 fu?), give it the ability to ferry 1 squad, and lock the Stuka barrage behind a muni/fuel/both upgrade. This would give the whole OKW faction a forward reinforcement platform and a transport from MechHQ and promote both diversified openings and its aggressive playstyle. There are also some unused troop transport voice lines which would be nice to hear.

On the Opel Blitz, to reduce overlap with the transport Stuka, can carry 2 squads instead of 1. Additionally, as opposed to the halftrack which should reinforce everywhere, should only be able to reinforce via the same requirements as the USF ambulance. It should also be able to drop healing kits as well (less tax on Sturms) OR lay Riegel AT mines (in this way it closely resembles the Muni HT from vCoH) allowing the doctrine to invest in Hetzer/other light vehicles while having something bigger to deter armor.

1: I love idea of mp 40 volks, just like in coh 1. Can't say they're powerful thou, as we know the performance of mp 40 with other unit ( cough cough assault grens)
2: I am not really sure about the truck, quite squishy but having tanky truck deos no sense and would make it pretty annoying if user just swarmds volks around it and reinforces losses.
3: incendiary rounds fit perfectly, thought it would be fine if it lowers the vet needed to use stuka flame rockets

4: Not sure how powerful Hetzer is, its flame tank i always loved, but 100 fuel feels still bit much. Also, does it vet properly now? i remember that hetzer had hard times getting to even vet 2.

5: Barrage's problem was in my opinion that its damage was inconsistent, no the ammount of rockets.

How about 1 armor with the assault package
and a 20% increase to the area of the flame barrage isg

How about 1 armor with the assault package
and a 20% increase to the area of the flame barrage isg

+1 armor would translate into -50% receive accuracy with small arms which would be a bit too much.
The ISG as five shot so why not more scatter to affect a larger area

+1 armor would translate into -50% receive accuracy with small arms which would be a bit too much.
The ISG as five shot so why not more scatter to affect a larger area

what would you give volks
to make them fair ? right now they get killed to fast for the mp 40 to work

If LeIG 75mm gets the accurate and continuous flame barrage, it is the instant counter to any British emplacement. All you have to do is use the regular barrage until it the brace, then use the flame barrage for multiple accurate flame shells to devour it.

That is a very effective counter to the mortar pit as it is now on live. If you cripple the mortar pit as it currently is in the DBP, then why would someone use it?

I don't know what kind of level you balance this game to, but I am a top Britts player 4vs4 and I don't see simcity as a good strategy, because it already has counters to make it unreliable.

Flame barrage is way too situational, it requires a specific unit and is still a muni paid ability that apparently struggle to set buildings on fire.
I will rather move goliath to feuersturm at this point.

I am really happy to see this commander getting revamped, but I feel it still has a lot of work to do. Here's my take.

Assault Packages

I like the idea of this, but I would like some clarification. How good are the MP40s? Are they better than STG44s in close range? If not, I don't see myself ever upgrading my volks with this. I have a hunch the MP40 upgrade is total garbage.

I never liked volks having an incendiary grenade instead of a standard Stielhandgranate. I'd like to see the incendiaries get moved to the assault package, and the Stielhandgranate moved to the default volks arsenal. I know people will tell me this is a massive change whose scope is beyond the commander, but remember that this was actually the original design for volks when OKW first came out. The incendiary grenades didn't come till later balance patches.

Incendiary Munitions

I like this. It will help a lot against British emplacement spamming. I haven't used it much yet so I can't speak to the damage, but the concept is good.

Opel Blitz Truck

I really do not like this ability, for several reasons. First off, it has no weapon so it's just a redundant medic truck. Second, it costs 25 fuel just for a mobile reinforcement point. That's the roughly same cost as a medic HQ (minus the truck deployment) for almost the same role, but with a pretty much guaranteed death since light vehicles almost never survive till late game (at least in team games). Even an ambulance only costs 10 fuel, and that can actually heal, even if you can't always be moving it around. Third, it's boring and it just turns makes OKW even more like other factions.

The most important reason this is unfitting is because it doesn't synergize with incendiary munitions. In order to make use of both this truck and incendiary munitions, you have to go medic HQ first, which means you're already going to have a forward reinforce point, making Opel Blitz redundant. If you go mechanized HQ first, then incendiary munitions aren't nearly as useful. Commanders shouldn't have an internal tradeoff like this.

A flame halftrack would be far more fitting in this slot because 1) it would allow you to comfortably go medic HQ and still have mechanized pushing power and 2) it fits the theme of aggressive, fire-based play, and 3) it doesn't risk OKW turning into an even blobber, A-move faction that it already can be sometimes.

Flame Hetzer

You guys really need to keep all the patches notes in one place. I looked through the December Balance Preview Thread and only saw that you were changing the Hetzer by nerfing its cost and moving it to the HQ. There's no other mention of it. It was only halfway through writing this post that I came across this YouTube video with the full Feuersturm changes. I was about to rip you a new one for not changing its awful stats.

I'm going to trying using the Flame Hetzer more before I comment on its new stats.

Rocket Barrage

Again, no mention of this in the balance preview thread. I only saw this in the video that you're increasing the number of rockets from 4 to 6. That's good, because before it was completely inferior to Scavenge Doctrine's 105mm howitzer barrage, yet cost more. Whether or not it still is is debatable, but I'm glad to see it getting a buff.