[DBP] Luftwaffe Ground Forces feedback thread

Lufwaffe ground forces is my favorite doctrine. I used it in GCS, and in retrospect, I probably suffered for it. In live patch, the doctrine is not strong, and any youre better off using any of the other meta doctrines (as is the case with other factions too). My issue is that with these changes, I see a net nerf to a doctrine thats already lacking power.

On live, almost all of the strength of the doctrine is in fallschirmjagers. You wanted to weaken the infiltration aspect of the unit (more than fair); however, that was the entire reason this doctrine was ever picked in the first place, and the buffs to other abilities are not enough to compensate.

Why would falls be preferable to jaegers now? Jaegers have better sight range, sprint, are cheaper, (later they have infil nades, but thats a scavenge commander ability), and scavenge. They trade all of this for what is now a nominally lower dps. I would straight up take jaegers in this doctrine now over current falls.

Now (imo), every single other ability in scavenge is more useful then every single other ability in luftwaffe, barring the recon run. Thorough salvage is nice (though somtimes a detriment), infil nades are the cheesy kind of strong, ostwinds are excellent (though nerfed on dbp iirc), and scavenge artilley is also excellent.

Comparing each ability and its changes:

Recon runs are good. A nice change to an already decent ability. Kind of awkward to utilize both the smoke and recon at the same time as others pointed out, but a cool change.

Falls changes I touched upon already. I now consider them worse than jaegers overall.

With regards to flak emplacements, what can a flak emplacement do that a well placed bunker wont do (besided AA). All without the (now greatly lowered) threat of it being turned against you. Then you consider the relatively high fuel cost in a faction that really needs to stay ahead in fuel to get proper teching, and the flak emplacements are still too risky to use. Its not about the effectiveness of the emplacement, its how easy it is to hard counter.

When you combined the cost and the limited duration, valiant assault was just too short and too pricye to to be useful. The Valiant assault changes are nice, but I dont think the changes are enough to make it be used.

As for airborne assault... its still a super high munitions ability with a still close-to-useless strafe that gives you fallschirmjager at a point where you dont even want them. The ability is at such a high cp that fallschirmjager are dead weight at that point. They have a high reinforcement cost and will be facing vetted up, up-gunned squads. At this point, your army is probably at the size where adding a squad like fallschirmjager will bleed you to the point of being unable to reinforce at will. And what even is the use case for the ability itself. Use it for the strafe? Thats easily dodged. Use it for the AT strafe? Its hardly impactful or useful enough as an AT strafe. Use it for the falls? Like i said, at this point, you dont want them. Use it in the perfect situation where you get to utilize all of the above aspects? Regular strafe is then dodged away from, AT strafe then does close to nothing, and that falls squad that you dont even want is being shot out of the sky. It just isnt a good ability. Its a cool ability. It has a cool concept. It has no real use in the game. Compare this to scavenge artillery which has MUCH larger area denial, is cheaper and scales up with munitions.

The abilities are still so niche or useless that they cant compensate for the nerf to falls.

Show Spoiler

Luftwaffe Really doesn't have anything particularly big time or good right now.

Falls are average infantry for their cost and often are behind in the veterancy game.

Recon overflight, nice complementary ability.

Vallaiant assault-probably the best part of the doctrine, no comment on buff values but its a nice type of ability to have access to.

Flak emplacement- Really doesn't fit the doctrine. Either make it bigtime like pak 43(pretend its a flak 88) to make this more attractive or just go all out offensive abilities, like a real airstrike

Airbourne assault- Pretty mediocre ability. You save up a ton of munitions to basically convert it to manpower. The pin and 1 strafe aren't worth much. The falls have no vet and come vs multiple tanks when their performance was already questionable. Its also likely that they can die on landing easily to vehicles.
It would be most useful it it cost some manpower and a lot less munitions. So you didn't have to save for so long to use it. 300 Mp, 125 munitions? It could be more a part of strategy than a once a game mabye thing. vet 0 falls still gonna bleed badly though and i would assume you already have falls, their in another ability

Overall- It needs something big time so it can even pretend to be useful lategame since its mediocre in the midgame and early game right now. Nothing gamechanging comes on the ground or in the air right now.

Suggestions- Steal ostheer pinplane, stuka divebomb, frag bombs, JU87 strafe, ect.

Show Spoiler

Luftwaffe Really doesn't have anything particularly big time or good right now.

Falls are average infantry for their cost and often are behind in the veterancy game.

Recon overflight, nice complementary ability.

Vallaiant assault-probably the best part of the doctrine, no comment on buff values but its a nice type of ability to have access to.

Flak emplacement- Really doesn't fit the doctrine. Either make it bigtime like pak 43(pretend its a flak 88) to make this more attractive or just go all out offensive abilities, like a real airstrike

Airbourne assault- Pretty mediocre ability. You save up a ton of munitions to basically convert it to manpower. The pin and 1 strafe aren't worth much. The falls have no vet and come vs multiple tanks when their performance was already questionable. Its also likely that they can die on landing easily to vehicles.
It would be most useful it it cost some manpower and a lot less munitions. So you didn't have to save for so long to use it. 300 Mp, 125 munitions? It could be more a part of strategy than a once a game mabye thing. vet 0 falls still gonna bleed badly though and i would assume you already have falls, their in another ability

Overall- It needs something big time so it can even pretend to be useful lategame since its mediocre in the midgame and early game right now. Nothing gamechanging comes on the ground or in the air right now.

Suggestions- Steal ostheer pinplane, stuka divebomb, frag bombs, JU87 strafe, ect.

luftwaffe ground forces.

luftwaffe ground forces.

Planes start on the ground

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luftwaffe ground forces.

If you actually look at the Relic patch notes on the COH2 forums for the DBP commander revamp, they call it Luftwaffe Air Forces. Fun fact there.

Fallschirmjagers

Have them para-drop in as a full 4 man squad. Don't allow them to spawn from buildings.

Airborne Assault

Remove the Fallschirmjagers and make this a dedicated AI/AT strafe with multiple passes.

Flak Emplacements

Replace this ability with an air-dropped weapon team/resource combo.

Valiant Assault

Have it available on individual units rather than globally.

+1 I like all these suggestions.

The smoke ability is very welcome addition.

Flak emplacement to me are fine the way they are now, one can argue their fuel cost but you can just regain that back from scavenging weapons and carcasses. Make then to hard to counter and I can guarantee you will get sick of countering them.

Fallschirmjaers are the most prominent ability in this commander. While im all for the infiltration nerf, im am surprise to see that the bundle grenade and abilities are not on call down. I honestly would think having their abilities on call down would be enough and as sully said, could have them para-drop instead. Dont agree with the changes.

I agree with Sully with the last 2 abilities.

Airborne assault fails in what it wants to be. Easiest solution would to make it a ai and at strafe (if possible, with set number of passes as the current live ai strafe comes in twice I think).

Valiant assault would just be better if units can use it individually (being cheaper of course, this would work due to the doctrine already having 2 other abilities requiring munition)

The smoke ability is very welcome addition.

Flak emplacement to me are fine the way they are now, one can argue their fuel cost but you can just regain that back from scavenging weapons and carcasses. Make then to hard to counter and I can guarantee you will get sick of countering them.

Fallschirmjaers are the most prominent ability in this commander. While im all for the infiltration nerf, im am surprise to see that the bundle grenade and abilities are not on call down. I honestly would think having their abilities on call down would be enough and as sully said, could have them para-drop instead. Dont agree with the changes.

I agree with Sully with the last 2 abilities.

Airborne assault fails in what it wants to be. Easiest solution would to make it a ai and at strafe (if possible, with set number of passes as the current live ai strafe comes in twice I think).

Valiant assault would just be better if units can use it individually (being cheaper of course, this would work due to the doctrine already having 2 other abilities requiring munition)

Iirc, ALL infiltration units have been changed to spawn with their grenades on cooldown. Its technically an infiltration unit change and not a falls change.

Iirc, ALL infiltration units have been changed to spawn with their grenades on cooldown. Its technically an infiltration unit change and not a falls change.

Arr k, missed that thank you

+1 to Sully's suggestions

Sully seems to be spot on with all the suggestions.

+1 from me.

And maybe we could change the commander to just "Luftwaffe Forces Doctrine" to have it make sense thematically.

WE WANT BOMBS
Seriously, this is LUFTWAFFE, not some lighting war doctrine, bring us as a reliable anti vehicle/building bombing run, something like soviet one, or even a new one with a a few mini stuka bombs scattered as shown in trailer.
Something to one shot mediums and highly damage heavies that went over a mine or are snared, and a reliable building killer.
Keep strafes for doctrine with tigers.. this one has to shine

V1.7 just dropped and it has updated OKW LGF changes, including what appears to be a name change for the Doctrine.

Pending me trying this in the mod, I [mostly] like the changes. I would have rather gotten rid of the Flak Emplacements for an air-drop of a light mortar and Pak40 but you can't get everything you want, even on Christmas. My thoughts below in red:

Luftwaffe Air Support

Flak Emplacement
We found that the high manpower cost of the Flak emplacement made it too expensive to field reliably.

• MP cost from 250 to 220
  
• Build time reduced from 120 to 100
  

I would have preferred a reversal of the fuel cost from 20 back to 10 but if they won't give us that, I'll take the MP decrease.


Valiant Assault

• Duration increased from 30 secs to 45 secs
  

Again, I would have preferred having the ability triggered on an individual unit basis but if I can't get that, this is a nice buff to the global ability. I can try to work with it.


Fallschirmjäger
We found that the infiltration ability failed to provide the necessary punch for the commander with 3-man squads while created nearly impossible to counter squad wipes at 4-man. Thus, we are experimenting with introducing Fallschirmjäger to the battlefield in a different way.

• Now turned from an infiltration ability to a paradrop ability
  
• Delivers a 4-man squad of Fallschirmjäger anywhere on the map
  
• Cost from 400 to 380
  
• Reinforcement cost from 38 to 36
  
• Can now reinforce while Airborne Assault is active
  

I love it! LOVE IT! It is even better than what we asked for because it has a reinforcement component now.


Airborne Assault
We are removing Fallschirmjager drops from the Airborne assault activity of the doctrine to make it more accessible.

• No longer paradrops a Fallschirmjager squad
  
• Now provides two JU-87 aircraft that perform anti-tank strafes (identical to Stuka Close-Air support)
  
• Fallschirmjager squads will be able to reinforce anywhere on the map while the ability is active
  
• Cost reduced from 250 to 200
  
• CP requirements raised from 10 to 12
  

Pending seeing what the performance actually is in the mod, I really like it based on how I read the changes. Another +1 from me.

Great changes in 1.7. I love the idea of reinforcing Falsch during Airborne Assault.

Surprised it took this long. Paratroopers not para dropping, but instead magically popping out of buildings inside which they were sleeping? Weird, in retrospect.

I trust the para drops will have a plane fly overhead, right?

I just love playing all doctrines that have planes in them in any capacity, and obviously, Luftwaffe Ground Forces is the most prominent of those, so having planes flying by dropping elite infantry just adds that much more to the immersion factor for this doctrine.

Removing the Fallschirmjager squad from Airborne Assault though... not a fan of that.

The combined arms approach of the ability really had a great feel to it. You drop Fallschirmjager while clearing the area. A spectacular entrance for spectacular troops. Now it has to be combo'd with the drop ability, which also means one less Fallschirmjager squad on the field in general.

Fallschirmjagers
I think that unit cost too much. They not better than obers (320MP in DBP, as I know) and now they have all abilities on couldown when they coming into the game. FG42 are weak against vet3 rifles with BAR's and tommy with brens, not to mention commandos or rangers (commandos have more abilities too, as you know).
I think it's need to reduce cost or up a damage (in comparison with commandos - more damage on long/mid distance, but lower on short distance). Maybe will be a good idea buff FG42 damage with lower cost of a squad, but spawn they with kar98k and give them upgrade to 4 FG42 for 100 muni or something like that (like it was in vCoH).
Luftwaffe Recon Run
Smoke a really good idea, i like that.
Heavy Fortifications
I think it will be OP in first 5-10 mins, but weak in late game, because we have a unit with very high anti-inf damage and small HP (easy to destroy with AT-guns/tanks, but hard to destroy with inf without smokes and grenades).
Valiant Assault
Honestly all same abilities now not working in current version of a game and I think the problem is not in muni cost.
Air Assault Operation
There are only one ability on request a squad without MP cost in CoH2, so I think it does not fit the concept of a game and that need to be replaced with something else (maybe another stuka ability or something new).

Fallschirmjagers
I think that unit cost too much. They not better than obers (320MP in DBP, as I know) and now they have all abilities on couldown when they coming into the game. FG42 are weak against vet3 rifles with BAR's and tommy with brens, not to mention commandos or rangers (commandos have more abilities too, as you know).
I think it's need to reduce cost or up a damage (in comparison with commandos - more damage on long/mid distance, but lower on short distance). Maybe will be a good idea buff FG42 damage with lower cost of a squad, but spawn they with kar98k and give them upgrade to 4 FG42 for 100 muni or something like that (like it was in vCoH).
Luftwaffe Recon Run
Smoke a really good idea, i like that.
Heavy Fortifications
I think it will be OP in first 5-10 mins, but weak in late game, because we have a unit with very high anti-inf damage and small HP (easy to destroy with AT-guns/tanks, but hard to destroy with inf without smokes and grenades).
Valiant Assault
Honestly all same abilities now not working in current version of a game and I think the problem is not in muni cost.
Air Assault Operation
There are only one ability on request a squad without MP cost in CoH2, so I think it does not fit the concept of a game and that need to be replaced with something else (maybe another stuka ability or something new).

You're one version behind :-)

v1.7 just came out a few minutes ago.

You're one version behind :-)

v1.7 just came out a few minutes ago.

Its better, then it was, but falls still worse than similar other factions units (commandos, rangers, etc.). I still think what they need a damage buff or something else (my ideas in the previos post).
Honestly commandos can use a brens and piats, what making them really much better than falls.
Airborne Assault
Now that's great, really like that changes.

UPD: maybe a good idea will be add them a anti-cover bonus like it have obers with MP44 upgrade (not to all squad or not too huge like obers have, ofc).

I really like the 1.7 updates!
With 1.6.1 update, the flak emplacements drop medkits? I haven't tried it yet ...

Fallschirmjagers
I think that unit cost too much. They not better than obers (320MP in DBP, as I know) and now they have all abilities on couldown when they coming into the game. FG42 are weak against vet3 rifles with BAR's and tommy with brens, not to mention commandos or rangers (commandos have more abilities too, as you know).
I think it's need to reduce cost or up a damage (in comparison with commandos - more damage on long/mid distance, but lower on short distance). Maybe will be a good idea buff FG42 damage with lower cost of a squad, but spawn they with kar98k and give them upgrade to 4 FG42 for 100 muni or something like that (like it was in vCoH).
Luftwaffe Recon Run

The trick with Fallschirmjagers is that unlike most other elite squads, they're actually a generalist squad (stealth, faust, long-range). So, if we overbuff them in anyway, that's going to be the next panzerfusilier blob.

Specialist short-range squads have to come out stronger than average to allow them to have any effect. Conversely, those elite squads gain significantly reduced bonuses compared to the opposition, simply because they come out stronger than they "should" at Vet0.

For Falls, as long as the bleed is not insane, they can still chip away at enemy squads and gain vet. Perhaps, the question we should ask is whether to further reduce the cost of callin in Fallschirmjagers, or move some of their later vet bonuses to vet0, so that they don't have to wait that long to deal damage (now that they don't have the annoying infiltration mechanic anymore).