[DBP] Luftwaffe Ground Forces feedback thread

Intent of the changes

The intent of the changes in the Luftwaffe doctrine was to make the doctrine less about spawning fallschirmjager from everywhere, and allow the rest of the army to keep up with them.

The commander had enough interesting abilities to come with it that were unique but simply not viable. Therefore, we went for a conservative approach to the commander.

Smoke Recon Assault

OKW lacks accessible smoke. Thus, we feel that by adding smoke dispensers to weaker commanders it will incentivize people to use them. The ability is purposely undercost (35MU for smoke & recon) for that purpose.

Fallschirmjagers

We have weakened the infiltration aspect of the unit to bring it on par with other infiltration squads. Once we have evaluated the performance of the unit properly, without the damage an instant infiltration spawn causes we could reward the unit with additional combat veterancy and/or reduce its call-in price.

Airborne Assault

The live-version of the ability was simply another "spawn fallschirmjager squad" ability. To give the doctrine more punch, the ability now also doubles as an AT strafe.

Flak Emplacements

They just sucked. Period

Valiant Assault

We hope that by increasing the cost-efficiency of the ability it will finally become useful. Nevertheless, this still feels like the weakest link in the doctrine. Ideas about how to enhance this ability (or replace it) are welcome!

An idea could be to move Valiant Assault to each OKW unit, sort of how OST sprint does it, to allow the players to summon it at will.

It may be intended because scatter and accuracy, but flak emplacement randomly seem to hit obstacles.

Still muni per falls? I would have preferred a dedicated stuka strafe/loiter/bombing run/bomb OFF MAP.

Not a fan of the three men spawn, I would rather make falls a normal airborne like unit spawning with para drop, the wipe menace is still there after all, but now falls can be easily wiped nontheless and need to go back, reinforce and come back to the battlefield for max efficiency.

While I like the five man buff for the infiltration commando, I do not like it for Fallschirmjagers. Additionally when looking at the Assault, they both just feel weird so here is my suggestion for both so they do not overlap each other.

Fallschirmjagers
-Paradropped in
One reason why it is a spawn falls is because as you know it is powerful and instant spawn out the gate. The time to paradrop in would help players to make tactical decision instead of a gut instinct to spawn a Falls to win a fight.

Airborne Assault
-Now is a two aircraft loiter
One Anti infantry MG strafing and the other AT strafing.
This would give a multipurpose support which is not too strong in both but still reasonable.

smoke run edit: whoops it was my bad

Valiant Assault

We hope that by increasing the cost-efficiency of the ability it will finally become useful. Nevertheless, this still feels like the weakest link in the doctrine. Ideas about how to enhance this ability (or replace it) are welcome!

An idea could be to move Valiant Assault to each OKW unit, sort of how OST sprint does it, to allow the players to summon it at will.

A 0 cp Sprint on Sturmpios would be a bit op, however this got me thinking. I do not know if this is OP.

New upgrade:
Luftwaffe Grounds Forces Support Package
-Exclusive upgrade for Sturmpios, Volks, and Obers
-Adds one FG42 (one slot item)
-Adds Sprint
-2-3 CP

As I said another post:

Overall

Luftwaffe doctrine revamp is very disappointing. Nothing new, nothing interesting, no motivation to pick the doctrine in any situation. Nerf to falls is a bad idea, the rework of other abilities is just MEH. I can't think in any situation where feuesturm (urban city scenario) and fortifications (defensive play) are not better options than luftwaffe.

This commander needs an entire rework.

Falls

I like them spawning as a normal airborne squad, fully and with a cost decrease. It's too expensive.

Valiant assault

Needs to be reworked complete or either be removed and replaced with something else (strafe?).

Airborne Assault

Redundant having falls. I would remove and replace it for something different. Perhaps paradrop some kind of resources?(like luft ost commander to compensate lack of cache?) Or paradrop weapon?

Flak emplacements

We have fortification commander for that. One doctrine with emplacements are enough and does not fit at all. I would remove it and replace it for something new.

I like the idea of an airdropped supply/weapons team. Maybe a GrW 34 Mortar and/or PaK40.

This commander still feels totally underwhelming and I can't see them ever getting picked. When other commanders have call-in tanks and air call-ins and infantry improvements.

On the plus side I really, really, like the new flak emplacement. That's a HUGE improvement, and makes the Fortifications commander even better.

I know the commander is called Luftwaffe Ground Forces. But the lack of any dedicated air support certainly doesn't help this commander (Airborne Assault doesn't count as you get stuck with an unwanted squad every time you use it).

I like the rework. The 3 man spawn will take some getting used to but it might be ok. I think maybe air dropping them instead of spawning might be an ok idea.
The flak is great now it's a good trade-off between deadly but easy to kill.
I found the the recon+smoke drop to be a really good combo especially coupled with valiant assault!
Perhaps reduce the cost of airborne assault and remove the fallschrims drop?

A different approach would be to spawn Falls with Kar 98s (if possible) with a significant cost reduction and upgrade to FG-42s. This makes it so that they can still flank decently and probably rely more on a grenade toss. Currently spawning as 3 men feels like too much of a nerf, especially when you're doing so defensively in something like a trench.

Airborne Assault needs to be a dedicated ability for dealing damage and not spawning a falls squad. Spawning the squad seems pretty redundant since you already have one slot dedicated to spawning falls and it's likely you don't even want the squad.

Valiant Assault probably needs replaced. A forward building-based HQ, supply drop containing a pak and munitions, a Hetzer modified to use the 75mm cannon, or an individual ability. The individual ability could also come with a small upgrade for vehicle or infantry detection.

A different approach would be to spawn Falls with Kar 98s (if possible) with a significant cost reduction and upgrade to FG-42s. This makes it so that they can still flank decently and probably rely more on a grenade toss. Currently spawning as 3 men feels like too much of a nerf, especially when you're doing so defensively in something like a trench.

Airborne Assault needs to be a dedicated ability for dealing damage and not spawning a falls squad. Spawning the squad seems pretty redundant since you already have one slot dedicated to spawning falls and it's likely you don't even want the squad.

Valiant Assault probably needs replaced. A forward building-based HQ, supply drop containing a pak and munitions, a Hetzer modified to use the 75mm cannon, or an individual ability. The individual ability could also come with a small upgrade for vehicle or infantry detection.

+1 especially to the modified hetzer.
More variety over cheesy/useless abilities.

The Commander feels all in all just underwhelming and boring, also not very usefull over all. I just can't imagine a situation where i would think: "What do i need? Oh yes Luftwaffe Ground forces".

The Smoke Recon Assault is a fine ability which might have some good synergy with some other units.

The Fallschirmjägers themselfs are fine, but i don't like that they spawn with 3 men, i think a better way to nerf the infiltration ability would be to put the grenade on cooldown. Though i think the best option would be to make them a fast airdropping squad.

Airborne Assault is just.. underwhelming, a mix of, well a lot of things to get.. nothing. While i like the idea to attack one specific point i think a stuka bomber drop would be a better idea, just to neutralize the sector, instead of having a squad that a) dies immediately or b) you don't really need.

The Flak Emplacement, it's not something that should be part of this commander. An Ostwind or an AT Hetzer would be far more interesting and fitting, at least in my opinion, or do an airdrop of some useful team weapons.

Valiant Assault, another ability that i think nobody would miss, either you change it. Or you replace it with something else, for example something like Luftwaffe Reserves, which would do something similar to Rapid Conscription for the Soviets (just something from the top of my head). I think that would be a neat idea, if properly balanced. Or you could do something entirely else.

In any case i think there are two abilities that have a huge potential to make space for something more interesting to make this commander more than a waste of space or a Fallschrimjäger homage.

Luftwaffe Ground Forces report card:

I cannot find a reason why I would pick this commander over another. Special Operations gives you recon. Scavenge, Feuresturm contain better off-map strikes. If you need elite infantry, Obersoldaten, Panzerfusiliers, and Jager Light Infantry seem more cost-effective. If you want to be defensive, Fortifications does the job much better.

Smoke Bombing Run
Feels like a self-spotting version of the WM smoke bombing run. Gives this ability more utility.

Heavy Fortifications
- Tank Traps are useful when Sturmpioneers cap (build green cover).
- Trenches are extremely situational; I would build them on garrison-lacking maps such as Langreskaya to house my MG34s, but otherwise I wouldn't spend the time to build them.
- Flak Emplacement is much stronger, I would actually build them to protect a flank or to prevent enemy harassment. However, their health is very misleading; the crew HP shows up on the unit icon while the gun/emplacement HP is hidden. Makes it harder to gauge the health of the unit.

Fallschirmjagers
The original buffs and infiltration adjustments in previous iterations of DBP were great for this unit. I do not agree with the 3-man infiltration spawn, however. I disagree that they should be on-par with other infiltration squads; they cost significantly more than WM Stormtroopers and especially SU Partisans. Therefore, I would say that their high cost justifies their combat strength. If you mess up (e.g. your opponent places explosive doormats, you exit the building into a blob) then you lose an even greater amount of MP. All infiltration units, even 3-man Falls/Commandos, are still capable of wiping low health retreating squads.

Two suggestions: if you would like to keep all infiltration units at roughly the same initial combat strength, then reduce Fallschirmjager infilitration cost. Otherwise, revert this change, allowing them to come onto the field as a 4-man squad (also the Brit Infiltration commandos).

Valiant Assault
The munitions cost decrease makes it much more viable. Still less effective than For the Motherland, but I would say that it is in a good spot.

Airborne Assault
The first few MG strafing runs only work if infantry are extremely close to the center point of the strafe (approximately 10m). The AT loiter works decently.

Is it possible to 1) increase the radius of this ability and allow the MG Stukas to gain targeting capability (gives this ability more combat power), or 2) give this ability a minimap UI that shows you exactly where the ability affects (to allow us to learn to use)?

3-man squad is a horrible change. Falschs are the core of this commander and they should stay great 4-man, elite infantry, which are useful all the time, not just during spawning. 3-men squad is killing entire commander.

If you want to nefr infiltration, make it possible only from building in a controled territory.

Instead of having flak emplacement, Ostwind call-in or some Kind of supply drop could work ( Paradrop mg or raketten)

Smoke Recon Assault

OKW lacks accessible smoke. Thus, we feel that by adding smoke dispensers to weaker commanders it will incentivize people to use them. The ability is purposely undercost (35MU for smoke & recon) for that purpose.

I think that recon with smoke feels clunky, and that often times you can only make use of one or the other. I think that the recon sweep in live is OK, and the smoke is an unneeded change. Also, as the Allies had near air supremacy, it would be reasonable to assume that most Luftwaffe planes would be grounded.

I'd vouch that the recon ability be replaced by Field Defenses (like Fortifications Doctrine) as Luftwaffe field divisions were frequently reserve units that performed rear-line duties like construction. Later in the war, most of these field divisions were absorbed into Volksgrenadier divisions.

Fallschirmjagers

We have weakened the infiltration aspect of the unit to bring it on par with other infiltration squads. Once we have evaluated the performance of the unit properly, without the damage an instant infiltration spawn causes we could reward the unit with additional combat veterancy and/or reduce its call-in price.

I don't agree with the "missing model" approach unless it also applies to all other infiltration squads. However, FG42s were rare weapons, and can easily be made into a slot item upgrade. The squad should spawn with either MP40s (Fallshirmjager squads dropped into combat with only light equipment like pistols and machine pistols and had to pick up their heavy equipment in separate crates; this option should be picked if Airborne Assault is kept) or Kar98ks (OKW can always use more long-range options). The upgrade adds 2xFG42s should have similar DPS curves to DP-28s but can fire on the move. It would reduce the shock value at infiltration greatly while also reflect history a bit closer.

Airborne Assault

The live-version of the ability was simply another "spawn fallschirmjager squad" ability. To give the doctrine more punch, the ability now also doubles as an AT strafe.

Something something Allied air supremacy.
Could be replaced by a Flakpanzer Ostwind call-in. Firestorm can be all about fire and Luftwaffe can be all about FlaK. After all, Late-war Germany focused heavily on FlaK and defensive night fighting in an attempt to curb Allied air power.

This has always been my favorite OKW Doctrine and I have used it in many a game, even when not the best choice. I do like most of the changes done to LGF but feel it could use some tweaks.

Smoke Recon Assault

I really like this buff. I used Recon regularly before but now it is even more useful. This change was subtle with noticeably increased utility without breaking anything. Nice job.

Fallschirmjagers

I don't like the Fallschirmjägers infiltrating with 3 men, which happens even if you call them in from off-map and not from a building by the way. I would rather pay 440 mp and get the 4th man back than 400 mp for 3 elements. In a game where RNG plays such a large role, I can't support a three-man squad under any circumstances. If this change has to stick, at least make it so calling in a Fallschirmjäger squad from the map edge (non-infiltration) restores the 4th element. However, I would prefer something different, even if it is a return to 440 mp for 4 men.

Airborne Assault

I really like the new strafe, especially that it can be used off the CPs. That was such a limiting factor. The addition of an AT strafe component, along with a strafing run after the drop is also welcome.

Flak Emplacements

I like the changes although would prefer the original 10 fuel cost. They aren't really spammable with the CP cost and do still de-crew rather easily. But they are usable in situations and provide anti-air now that base emplacements don't, so I thank you for that.

Valiant Assault

I would prefer this be available on individual units, once unlocked, rather than a global ability. That increased granularity would make it more useful throughout the game. Otherwise, the +25% accuracy buff is fine as is Sprint.

I like the idea of an airdropped supply/weapons team. Maybe a GrW 34 Mortar and/or PaK40.

I really like this idea. Not sure what to replace to get it, probably the Flak Emplacements since that overlaps with the Fortifications Doctrine. My answer is predicated on Valient Assault being modified to function on a per unit basis rather than globally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUdezMxCY9s

0:11, that's what i expect from a Luftwaffe doctrine x)

MP40 package would fit well into this doctrine.

Fallschirmjagers

Have them para-drop in as a full 4 man squad. Don't allow them to spawn from buildings.

Airborne Assault

Remove the Fallschirmjagers and make this a dedicated AI/AT strafe with multiple passes.

Flak Emplacements

Replace this ability with an air-dropped weapon team/resource combo.

Valiant Assault

Have it available on individual units rather than globally.