Commander Revamp concerns

I know it's too early to give detailed informed feedback. I just want to say that I'm really surprised that instead of a big revamp it's more a series of very minor tweaks.

I suspect the reason most of these commanders aren't used is because the combination of abilities and units simply aren't very good, especially compared to other commanders. So tweaking them isn't going to fix that fundamental problem.

By far the best example of that is this:


Anti-Building Mortar Support
We find that the ability is extremely map dependent and thus limited in use. The building-destroying aspect of the ability is often unneeded, as the ARE can perform similar duties with greater flexibility. To improve the abilities usefulness and effectiveness, the following changes have been made:

Steadily drops 8 shells over 12 seconds at the target position.
Cost decreased from 150 to 140
Damage over time frequency decreased from 3 to 1
Mortar near AOE distance from 1.5 to 0
Recharge time from 240 to 120


You acknowledge that the ability is 'extremely map dependent' and that it is basically redundant due to having the AVRE. But then you go on to give it minor tweaks, which doesn't address the map dependency issue or that the AVRE does a vastly better job.
That ability is by far one of the worst in the game. It should be replaced by a far more useful one, rather than trying to revive a corpse with medicine.


I really hope you aren't planning to simply tweak a few exist things, and not actually make any real significant changes, or I suspect this will be a very well intended but ultimately doomed use of time and resources.
If you check this thread on the commanders revamp: https://www.coh2.org/topic/64978/commanders-revamp-december-patch you'll see that a lot of people presumed that big changes were going to be made, and as such have suggested their own drastic changes to improve the commanders (a lot of which are very promising and changes I'd fully support compared to what we have so far).


I can't stress enough that I don't want to come across as defeatist or pessimistic, but I think it's important to stress as early as possible that if you continue like this I don't think it will be anywhere near enough to make any of these commanders worth using. Let alone good enough to be seriously considered as viable replacements for the most popular commanders.

Please, PLEASE, be more bold and visionary with future commanders. They need drastic changes, not minor tweaks.


Also, I'm hugely thankful that you're dedicating your time and resources to doing this, it's by far the best thing to happen to the game since the introduction of community patches. Which is why I want to make sure it's as worthwhile and beneficial to the game as possible.

Poor wording on my end, but the anti-building barrage now targets anywhere. Essentially an incendiary barrage that deals good damage to ambient structures while it denies an area for a period of time.

Poor wording on my end, but the anti-building barrage now targets anywhere. Essentially an incendiary barrage that deals good damage to ambient structures while it denies an area for a period of time.

That's certainly a big improvement to that ability.
Are there plans to replace units or abilities for any of the commanders, or is this likely to be a tweaking only revamp?

Anti-Building Mortar Support
We find that the ability is extremely map dependent and thus limited in use. The building-destroying aspect of the ability is often unneeded, as the ARE can perform similar duties with greater flexibility. To improve the abilities usefulness and effectiveness, the following changes have been made:

Steadily drops 8 shells over 12 seconds at the target position.
Cost decreased from 150 to 140
Damage over time frequency decreased from 3 to 1
Mortar near AOE distance from 1.5 to 0
Recharge time from 240 to 120

Is there any place we can see the notes already? Or is that from the secret corners of the forum?

Here are the patch notes.

I would say that I am not too concerned for the British Forces Commander revamps, as both of them were in a decent spot and only needed tweaks to preexisting abilities to make them much more competitive.

Other commanders, such as Tank Hunter Tactics, Recon Support Company, and Jaeger Light Infantry Doctrine could use a lot more than just ability tweaks.

I have a ton of ideas for how I would like the commanders to turn out; I'm pretty sure that it won't be what I'm expecting it to be, but so far I've agreed with almost everything the balance team has brought up, so I trust that the commander revamp will be sufficient.

I know it's too early to give detailed informed feedback. I just want to say that I'm really surprised that instead of a big revamp it's more a series of very minor tweaks...

UKF are practically redesigned, the patch already bring sweeping changes to game play and the commander changes are big.

The problem with older Patchs from Relic was that they tented to overbuff or overnerf units. Imo this path at this stage of the game is wrong.

Changes should aim at improving the current game and not redesign it.

Here are the patch notes.

Other commanders, such as Tank Hunter Tactics, Recon Support Company, and Jaeger Light Infantry Doctrine could use a lot more than just ability tweaks.

You're absolutely right about that. I really hope they do make drastic changes to make those commanders worth using.

Too few changes.

I'm still concerned about the royal engineer commander. Avre got quite the health nerf when it's one good attribute could be that it was used as a meatshield and distraction for your other units to attack with. Additionally, turtles end up having a lot of AT weapons, so I feel the avre needed that health to get in, fire, get out.

The problem with the command ability is that you end up having to sacrifice a pretty good vehicle in order to make it a commander, wheras the panzer 4 command tank is actually pretty damn good at killing units.

Lastly the biggest problem with mortar support is that it's at like what 8/12 CP? Buildings are a bigger factor at lower CP's, it should be at like 6 in my opinion. 13 CP a tiger can come out.

Other then those three complaints I think all the other changes were great and definitely make those commanders better.

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The problem with the command ability is that you end up having to sacrifice a pretty good vehicle in order to make it a commander, wheras the panzer 4 command tank is actually pretty damn good at killing units.
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Command vehicle comes earlier and is far superior to Command PzIV (which only good vs soft targets and vet rather slow).

In addition the infantry (and some of vehicles) it support are far better.

Command vehicle comes earlier and is far superior to Command PzIV (which only good vs soft targets and vet rather slow).

In addition the infantry (and some of vehicles) it support are far better.

I have already won coutless games with mobile defense double puma -> command p4 -> pantha spam in 1v1 mode.

I have never found a useful place for commander vehicle, because it cannot a)keep up with other tanks b) is squishy as hell or expensive as garden (the fuel of tank cost is wasted because it is useless vehicle in combat)

I have already won coutless games with mobile defense double puma -> command p4 -> pantha spam in 1v1 mode.

I have never found a useful place for commander vehicle, because it cannot a)keep up with other tanks b) is squishy as hell or expensive as garden (the fuel of tank cost is wasted because it is useless vehicle in combat)

Test it in mod.

Command p4 still reduces damage by a multiplier of 0.8 right?

That thing keeps (kept?) axis tanks alive like nobodies business. I haven't used it for a while.

Based on round 2 of the commanders revamp (tweaking) it looks like it is going to be a case of only minor tweaking, rather than serious (and in some cases much needed) revamps.

The irony is that because it improves units that are available with other commanders, it will most likely just make other commanders even better, and thus make these few commanders even more unpopular.

The reason some of these commanders are barely ever used is because they're very clearly totally inferior to other commanders. Most likely because they specialise too much in only a few areas.

The AVRE commander has certainly been improved A LOT, so hopefully a few more commanders will become viable just from tweaking. But based on how awful most of the commanders are, I'm pretty sure they will still be totally inferior and won't be used even after being tweaked.
Some of these commanders require really drastic overhauls, or to have their 'theme' scrapped entirely.

The eastern revamp is better than the british "revamp".

mechanized company need pershing not recon plane

Would be great to have a USF Pershing+ShermanE8 commander. Soviets already have a t34/85+IS2 commander - I always play with that.

Or is that too much?

UKF are practically redesigned, the patch already bring sweeping changes to game play and the commander changes are big.

Imo this path at this stage of the game is wrong.

Changes should aim at improving the current game and not redesign it.

Finally someone who gets it. These December Patch changes disregard faction design, just to present something flashy. Too few changes? No, way too many and not even good ones.

I'm willing to bet that more people will notice and be affected by hotkey shuffling than anything else.