Why DBP is destined not to work

I have been going thru the newest versions of DBP and imo is becoming more and more destined to create more problems than it solves.

The sear amount of changes at all stages of the game are so big and all some many different types of units that is is impossible to get right. To make things even worse it will become even harder to identify what changes went wrong.

My suggestion would be focus most changes only in one stage of the game and make only minor adjustments in other stages.

One could argue that since the patches are not frequent one should try to make the best of it and add as many changes as possible. But that would also mean that if one get a single change wrong the game will broken for a very long time.

Lest not forget that FBP was scrapped because community was too confused about all those changes and simply refused to release a patch with things they were not satisfied because they werent able to understand and try everything properly.

The vast majority of the changes in the game are small fine-tuning changes to long-standing well-understood issues (e.g., OST T3/T4 changes and Soviet T2 changes). Then, there is a vast number of small no-brainer changes.

Most of these changes have had the benefit of being tested in FBP (and reintroduced as lighter versions of themselves), or tested in a large number of balance mods, and seemed to work.

Conscripts, while an important issue have received conservative changes, as you've already seen both theoretically (and also, hopefully) while testing them out yourself.

Volksgrenadiers, OKW Vet4/5, Penals, Lend-lease meta, Heavy TD and heavy artillery are also well understood and urgent issues that needed resolution.

For every faction, we are taking a calculated risk and are attempting to define new roles for units that really need them. Those calculated risks currently are:
- Jackson
- USF Smoke change (which is a prerequisite for the Jackson)
- Ostwind (only because of the range)
- OKW timing with respect to their vehicle fuel prices

Everything else has been meticulously modified in predictable ways. For most of the changes, this won't really change the intended raw performance of the unit, but it will require you to rethink how much micro you are willing to invest on said units (e.g., Firefly and Panther moving accuracy pop to mind).

Are we seriously going to bemoan the fact that 20-or so units have had their popcap adjusted to match their performance?

I have been going thru the newest versions of DBP and imo is becoming more and more destined to create more problems than it solves.

Can you please provide a list of all the changes you consider to be too profound? Instead of spending time trying to count the number of lines on the changelog, why not spend sometime testing the changes and see for yourself how many of these changes are truly as gamechanging as you make them out to be.

This is a nearly 5-year old game, and one of the thorns in this game has been Commander Design. This is, finally, the coming of the Commander Rework patch. However, we can't give the game meaningful commanders, however, unless the baseline factions have been adjusted in a way that their synergy makes sense throughout the duration of the game.

Why bother revamping infantry-based doctrines if they are going to get chewed apart by Luchs in the early game or bled by heavy TDs, lavanades and Vet5 in the lategame? Why bother revamping non-Tiger doctrines if OST teching is so expensive that you always need a Tiger? How are you going to evaluate the performance of those changes if the baseline is so skewed?

The vast majority of the changes in the game are small fine-tuning changes to long-standing well-understood issues (e.g., OST T3/T4 changes and Soviet T2 changes). Then, there is a vast number of small no-brainer changes.

Conscripts, while an important issue have received conservative changes, as you've already seen both theoretically (and also, hopefully) while testing them out yourself.

Volksgrenadiers, OKW Vet4/5, Penals, Lend-lease meta, Heavy TD and heavy artillery are also well understood and urgent issues that needed resolution.

For every faction, we are taking a calculated risk and are attempting to define new roles for units that really need them. Those calculated risks currently are:
- Jackson
- USF Smoke change (which is a prerequisite for the Jackson)
- Ostwind

Everything else has been meticulously modified in predictable ways. For most of the changes, this won't really change the intended raw performance of the unit, but it will require you to rethink how much micro you are willing to invest on said units (e.g., Firefly and Panther moving accuracy pop to mind).

Are we seriously going to bemoan the fact that 20-or so units have had their popcap adjusted to match their performance?



Can you please provide a list of all the changes you consider to be too profound?

And all Axis tanks received a price decrease or performance increase. Allied tanks were nerfed too. You think this will not hamper lategame balance ?

I have been going thru the newest versions of DBP and imo is becoming more and more destined to create more problems than it solves.

The sear amount of changes at all stages of the game are so big and all some many different types of units that is is impossible to get right. To make things even worse it will become even harder to identify what changes went wrong.

My suggestion would be focus most changes only in one stage of the game and make only minor adjustments in other stages.

One could argue that since the patches are not frequent one should try to make the best of it and add as many changes as possible. But that would also mean that if one get a single change wrong the game will broken for a very long time.

isnt this a bit to early to say?

did u played somes games in the 1.3 patch?

give it some time...

Mr. Smith, we appreciate the effort with DBP, but you are making too much changes that are not really needed.
e.g.
- Smoke on RE.
- Elephant nerfs.
- Jackson Buffs.
- OST Panther nerfs, instead of some "love".
- changes in vets in almost every unit.
- T34/76 cost increase. Why??

Can you please provide a list of all the changes you consider to be too profound?

It not only how big one change but the sear number of changes that affect the same unit.

The change in Pioneer repair speed for instance profoundly affects Kubel play and simple reduction in far DPS the removal of scatter hit and maybe converting some armor to HP would probably enough for the unit.

The patch currently tries to re-balance:
FRP
Repair speeds
Commander
Infantry
Rocket artillery
Artillery
indirect fire weapons
ATG
HMG
TDs
Tanks

while some units are hit with x3 to x5 nerfs/buffs. That is simply too ambitious.

I mean you want to rebalance TDs start with less changes like:
Reduce damage of Elephant and JT to 240, increase HP of Jackson to 560 reduce damage to 160, reduce mid range of FF to 25-30 reduce accuracy and remove (make doctrinal)or push back tulips (vet 1 or locked behind hammer only). Then see how it goes.

while some units are hit with x3 to x5 nerfs/buffs. That is simply too ambitious.

Stop treating changes as the number of lines on the paper. This doesn't work here; and this doesn't work like that in real life either.

Just go out and play the mod.

I want you to provide us with a list of units that you believe we have over-touched with changes that are far too detouched by no-brainer changes. I want you to use your experience from trying the mod, and point us out to that list.

isnt this a bit to early to say?

did u played somes games in the 1.3 patch?

give it some time...

One need a month just to test each change once...

One need a month just to test each change once...

We are playing a lot together 2v2 DBP lately but I dont know what to test right now because there are so many variables. So not, its not like we are not playing the the game.

Its more like we dont know where to start when playing the game

Vipper disagrees with the changes on paper and that we're not taking her axis buffs proposals seriously. Therefore, she says the patch is not destined to work and nobody should enjoy the changes if her requested changes are not in the game. Even though everyone has invited her countless times to play the mod, she just looks at number, and refuses to accept that things don't always go the way she wants to.

After doing some Math, if the HVAP rounds bugs were fixed, the new Jackson will perform better at it's intended role without deleting Mediums as many people feared it would, it's gonna work better now as that thing has beastly Veterancy.

Mr. Smith, we appreciate the effort with DBP, but you are making too much changes that are not really needed.
e.g.
- Smoke on RE.
- Elephant nerfs.
- Jackson Buffs.
- OST Panther nerfs, instead of some "love".
- changes in vets in almost every unit.
- T34/76 cost increase. Why??

- Over all, riflemen are overperforming so it is a reasonable change. Mortar smoke is buffed so that is now - a strong substitute.
- Needed
- Needed
- Ost Panther has been buffed not nerfed. Faster Reload, better MGs.
- Volks are over preforming as well as the rest of the vet 4 and 5 units
- have you not seen a swarm of T34s? It has really good anti infantry and reasonable vs P4s.

- Over all, riflemen are overperforming so it is a reasonable change. Mortar smoke is buffed so that is now - a strong substitute.
- Needed
- Needed
- Ost Panther has been buffed not nerfed. Faster Reload, better MGs.
- Volks are over preforming as well as the rest of the vet 4 and 5 units
- have you not seen a swarm of T34s? It has really good anti infantry and reasonable vs P4s.

might wanna check 1v1 vet 3 rifles with bars vs vet 5 volks with stg

if you think vet 5 units are overperofomring,its okw asysmetry they should get it abd be edge on slightly op with those vets
those vets nerf should all b reverted

although why am i even trying you and the modders have shown so much allied bias before and after

Why should a 250mp 60muni squad not lose to a 280mp 120muni squad?

might wanna check 1v1 vet 3 rifles with bars vs vet 5 volks with stg

if you think vet 5 units are overperofomring,its okw asysmetry they should get it abd be edge on slightly op with those vets
those vets nerf should all b reverted

although why am i even trying you and the modders have shown so much allied bias before and after

If you were to check out my mod, you can see I would change the BAR if I could. The problem with STGs is the fact that they provide too much damage to the opposing counter parts, Riflemen and Conscripts. Additionally, my preferred faction is Ostheer but it is very hard to play them in the current meta when they are the slowest and weakest of all the factions.

Why should a 250mp 60muni squad not lose to a 280mp 120muni squad?

the fact that they are vet 5 vs vet 3.?? you know the vet is an assumetry advantage to okw..?? which allied Bp modders are nerfing

IN FACT this is the theme of mod,they are just adjusting prices by30 or 10 fuel

like difference between volks and rifle is 30mp

meanwhile the difference in combat is so much better ,that extra perfomace results in better costs for in mp for usf in return

Same with the axis armor nerf or obers

don't decrease their cost and nerf their vet 5 keep cost same and buff them

obers need just need nerfing to passive suppression and buffing their lmg damage from 6 to 8

but here you have modders massively buffing Jackson but only increasing cost marginally compared to performance increase
meanwhile axis armor got price nerf,damage nerf but HEY LOOK MG IS BETTER LOL

ver1.3
KubelwagenShow Spoiler
Reducing the tenacity of the unit does not reduce the bleed. Reducing the DPS does.

Lowering the RNG is ok but the unit should remain as tough as before especially since it will be repaired much slower. Making it squishier only increases the frustration with unit.

There is no reason for reduced rear armor since, due to size infantries can fire on the rear even when the vehicle is facing them.

Recommended changes:

1) Remove scatter hits
2) Reduce DPS around x0.90-0.85
3) Reduce XP value to be lower than mainline infantry
4) Fix "Kubelwagon Detection" to be timed ability and to increase sight to 70

To add. There is no way how to counter tank swarms unless you have enough tanks yourself.

To kill one tank rushing at your AT guns your need 2 AT guns otherwise it will rush it down and circlestarfe it and kill it.

So for swarm of 7x t34/76 you would need 14 rakketens to counter them without being overrun which is 3500 mp. You also need some AT - this is unaquirable.

Tanks fall short to t34/76 too because of its cheapness and healthpool. The 34/76 could almost outnumber OKW p4 2:1 (80 fuel vs 150 fuel). Good luck countering 8 chanrging t34/76s with mere 4 Panzers (and so what they have better armor, they cannot hit a sh*t on a move so they need to stand still = being flanked and losing armor)