BDP Garrison and ungarrison changes - Do we like them?

Do you like this change? The change being a unit will now garrison and ungarrison slowly, one at a time.

Main points are that it is:

More realistic, and lessens 'abuse' of garrisons by hopping in and out of buildings to avoid incoming fire.

However, it takes a second or two before you can give a unit subsequent orders, such as 'retreat' or 'move here', meaning it slows down the game and increases the likelihood of a wipe as a unit exits a building. Depending on your perspective, not being able to dodge nades and the like is a handicap to 'good micro'.

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Garrisons are so strong in the live game, that the only kind of garrisons game balance can handle are those that die in one shot to grenades. Basically, this means that live-game isn't equipped to handle garrisons at all, making all forms of anti-garrison except for flamers, completely ineffective at gaining garrisons.

Some factions completely lack flamers, even though they have good enough substitutes elsewhere (indirect fire, or decent grenades). If we don't fix garrisons we WILL have to give every single faction access to flamethrowers on their engineer unit further homogenising the factions.

The first 1-2 models will always exit instantaneously, sparing you a wipe. Garrison-exiting will also benefit smaller squads, as you will be able to issue subsequent commands faster.

Relic-permitting, we will try to reduce grenade damage vs buildings in one of the future updates of DBP, so that your MGs won't get insta-wiped, if they can't dodge a grenade in time.

Live-version garrisons are completely cancerous. Even with half-decent micro you can COMPLETELY negate the effects of indirect fire, making the "rush for the main garrison" a race you cannot miss out of.

Garrisons are so strong in the live game, that the only kind of garrisons game balance can handle are those that die in one shot to grenades. Basically, this means that live-game isn't equipped to handle garrisons at all, making all forms of anti-garrison except for flamers, completely ineffective at gaining garrisons.

Some factions completely lack flamers, even though they have good enough substitutes elsewhere (indirect fire, or decent grenades).

The first 1-2 models will always exit instantaneously, sparing you a wipe. Garrison-exiting will also benefit smaller squads, as you will be able to issue subsequent commands faster.

Relic-permitting, we will try to reduce grenade damage vs buildings in one of the future updates of DBP, so that your MGs won't get insta-wiped, if they can't dodge a grenade in time.

I agree to some extend, which is why i am undecided. My only gripe is how long it takes to have control of the squad again, meaning i have to sit there and babysit them until i can issue another order. No way to reduce that time? Also as i believe Tightrope pointed out, the unit clumps into one spot just before entering the building, making one hit wipes possible.

I'd argue it is still better than the highly abusable state garrison mechanics right now.
But let's thank whoever made the change that stopped one hit wipes when squads exit buildings. That stuff was an absoloute nightmare. RIP doormines you won't be missed.

So there was indeed an observable progress that was made concerning garrisons and I am sure the anti abuse changes will be similiar. I agree with finndeed, but it's the lesser evil to do it like it's in DBP imo.

I would actually make them enter fast like in live, but exit like in DBP.

Now that I think of it, prior to DBP I had an Idea about garrison fixing.
What if you made some sort of a one move cooldown penalty:
You make one move -> you get a cooldown for your next move.

Example 1)
You issue an enter building command and your unit enters it immediately.
You then immediately issue an exit command, but your unit exits only after, like 3 seconds or something like that. (The standard MG garrison exit time)

Example 2)
You issue an enter building command and your unit enters it immediately.
4 or 5 seconds time passes
You issue an exit command, and your unit exits immediately.

Example 3)
Your unit is already inside a building
You issue an exit command and your unit exits immediately.
You then immediately issue an enter command into the same building
Your unit enters after 3 or 4 seconds

Example 4)
Your unit is already inside a building
You issue an exit command and your unit exits immediately.
4 or 5 seconds time passes
You issue an enter command into the same building
Your unit enters immediately.

Unless there is some kind of engine limitation™, this way sounds like the best of both worlds. High responsiveness unless you try to spam commands and abuse garrisons. Any caveats with this?

The issue i have is the amount of time mgs now take to set up. Also satchels will be harder to dodge especially if there is any input delay or it is lategame when micro begins to falter.

Flamers will be much more effective now.

Flame cars, especially flame ht from ost will be particularly strong. I suspect you will be able to wipe units before they can even retreat. Can't wait. Lol.

Also I think players will use attack ground and target the doorway for lucky wipes.

That sounds very pessimistic, but let's see what really happens. Can't be worse than the infinity-stall + grenade invulnerability that happens now imo.

That sounds very pessimistic, but let's see what really happens. Can't be worse than the infinity-stall + grenade invulnerability that happens now imo.

It will depend on the timing and will not occur all time but many maps mainly 1v1 allow units to hide somewhat an if time correctly you will be able attack at same time as someonw enters building. Flamwes will have extra time to attack. Molotovs and flame nades also have more time to indlict damage.

Number of windows is a critical factor on every garrison in the game.

It dictates how many garrisoned units on the inside can fire out, and it dictates how many entities outside units are firing at.

A building side with no windows can't shoot out, but can be shot inwards. Though I am not entirely sure how garrisoned entities are targeted in this situation.

It is unfortunate that so many maps don't utilize this very often.

I'd like to be able to exit and retreat right away. I'd rather the penalty just be on entering. There are a lot of times I exit a building with just a couple of models and see this leading to lots of wipes.

I won't miss the current state of garrison BS. The only thing I like less than having to use garrisons is playing against someone who does the hop-in, hop-out all the time.

Snip

Personally I agree and hope this change makes it in the final patch. The one concern I have is the fact that infiltration unit cheese still exists and this changes makes those units with grenades not on cool-down even more annoying on any map with more than one building next to each other.

After the garrison change, the strong grenade like Bundle and Gammons bombs should looking at too (the one-nade destroy whole wooden house is cancer IMO)
Same goes to the infiltrate units rework (add cooldown in their abilities when deploy in ungarrison building).

I agree to some extend, which is why i am undecided. My only gripe is how long it takes to have control of the squad again, meaning i have to sit there and babysit them until i can issue another order. No way to reduce that time? Also as i believe Tightrope pointed out, the unit clumps into one spot just before entering the building, making one hit wipes possible.

Lowering de-garrison speed is the key element that will allow grenades to, finally, have some effect on garrisons. Ideally, you should be allowed to issue commands while your squad is exiting. However, there is no way to have both. Thus, your best bet is to make a good use of your ungarrison command, and pick a good location you want your units to go to.

i.e., if you want your units to go out, and then run behind some boxes, just right click behind the boxes immediately, rather than wait for them to ungarrison and THEN click behind cover.

The de-garrison delay is also a small win vs infiltration units. You can't issue attack/ability commands to your infiltration units until they are all out, and that gives 1-2 secs of warning time, at least.

You should avoid entering a building while there are squads shooting at you; or at least try to use a backdoor for that. This is what makes garrison-swaps possible in DBP. Hopefully that will make rushing key garrisons less relevant in the meta.

Hey; it might also give mappers some slack so that they can use something other than wooden buildings in their maps.

Try playing live-version Westwall, and let us know how it feels now. Aside from infiltration cheese it's a good map.

Lowering de-garrison speed is the key element that will allow grenades to, finally, have some effect on garrisons. Ideally, you should be allowed to issue commands while your squad is exiting. However, there is no way to have both. Thus, your best bet is to make a good use of your ungarrison command, and pick a good location you want your units to go to.

i.e., if you want your units to go out, and then run behind some boxes, just right click behind the boxes immediately, rather than wait for them to ungarrison and THEN click behind cover.

The de-garrison delay is also a small win vs infiltration units. You can't issue attack/ability commands to your infiltration units until they are all out, and that gives 1-2 secs of warning time, at least.

You should avoid entering a building while there are squads shooting at you; or at least try to use a backdoor for that. This is what makes garrison-swaps possible in DBP. Hopefully that will make rushing key garrisons less relevant in the meta.

Hey; it might also give mappers some slack so that they can use something other than wooden buildings in their maps.

Try playing live-version Westwall, and let us know how it feels now. Aside from infiltration cheese it's a good map.

I have played westwall a lot, its really horrible because of the buildings, however this change wont stop or even really reduce the building abuse. Look at the game i played against frost recently the 'Cons cons cons' one.

I was still able to dodge grenades being thrown at builds with all or almost all the models.

Could we not make entering the building near instantaneous and exit the build take less time per model? Could we at least try that? Also given that MG's have to tear down before exit, you punish MG's twice as much, which probably adversely affects OST.

I think i would like to see this change in the game, just not sure i like it as it is right now.

Unit that can move whiled cloaked shout have their explosive grenade replaced by DOT ones.

When your enemy reach your wall, Windows and walls aren't anymore protection you.
Why not simply remove the defensive bonus for garrisoned unit when your opponent reach your building wall?

When your enemy reach your wall, Windows and walls aren't anymore protection you.
Why not simply remove the defensive bonus for garrisoned unit when your opponent reach your building wall?

Garrisons, then, become completely useless, as unlike sandbags (which protect you better), there are often not enough windows for your entire squad to fire from.

Garrisons, then, become completely useless, as unlike sandbags (which protect you better), there are often not enough windows for your entire squad to fire from.

So in this instance garrisons do, in fact, have a mitigating factor to their supposed strength.

I agree that entering a building should have the bulk of the delay, not leaving it, should be tested as an alternative.

Soldiers would be taking time clearing the building to occupy, but not waste time clearing out of it. Makes more thematic sense and is a little more intuitive.