The Toasty Sniper Start

Introduction

This strategy has really only been tested on all maps in lower to intermediate level 1v1 play so far. I was bored and thought it would be interesting to try and develop something new. After a few games I ironed it out, continued to test it, and I think I've found something that works. It is for the Ostheer, so do not try replicating this with the Soviets.

|Early Game|

As usual, take your starting Pioneer unit and construct the Infanterie Kompanie before proceeding off to cap. However, the important bit is when initially acquiring territory, head directly for the fuel on that map. It is essential that we harass it as much as possible, if not take it for ourselves and secure it.

Then, that's right, build a Sniper. He will be used to play mind-games with the enemy as well as follow your Pioneer squad around. It can also win you the infamous stand-off between Soviet Combat Engineers and Ostheer Pioneers that tends to take place in the beginning of the match, so long as there are no Conscripts nearby.

Conscripts vs. Sniper

Before we go further, I'd like to quickly discuss what Conscripts means for your Sniper at this stage. Any good Soviet opponent will use the "Oorah!" ability and charge your Sniper when they spot it. The best you can do is keep it at max range, and the moment he shoots soft-retreat him into the fog of war. Even better, into an area where he can cloak, then "Hold Fire". On top of this, do not engage Conscripts without your Pioneers being there, who can attempt to form a screen for your Sniper.

If it comes down to it, do not lose your sniper! I cannot stress that enough. Instead, retreat him back to base. This scenario will be more of a problem now than at any other point in the battle, as you just don't have the units to form a proper safety net and screen for your Sniper to conduct operations. Regardless, be patient. As I mentioned earlier, the Sniper's survival is of utmost importance. You lose him early on and you might as well throw in the towel.





Now with that out of the way, we need to get some more boots on the ground. Two Grenadiers and MG-42s will do the trick, in any order really. I usually get Grenadiers > MG-42 > Grenadiers > MG-42, but that is just personal preference. You can start with two MG-42s then get two Grenadier squads, however you must have good MG-42 micro. This is because the closest thing you have to an infantry squad is the Pioneers, so if it gets flanked it will more than likely be forced to retreat.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this strategy is very versatile and mobile. That's due to it being primarily built around the Sniper. So your machine-gun teams will have to be moving around a lot, covering flanks and so forth. Grenadiers are naturally more mobile than an MG is, which is why I start with it. However, you can also argue that starting with a machine-gun is a good way to lock down the fuel and create a safety net for your Sniper, whereas a Grenadier squad can only form a screen, which is not as effective. It is up to you, don't be afraid to try different things. Figure out what works, or even just switch it up from time to time simply because you can.



Okay, so before we delve into the build order and other things in regards to the mid-game, I'd like to get some things wrapped up. By showing your hand extremely early with the Sniper, you've more than likely been playing mind-games with your opponent, maybe without even realizing it. For example, he may have been planning on a different strategy until he encountered your Sniper practically out of the gate, so he changed his own plans to get a counter-sniper and / or Scout Car.

This is exactly what we want. For him to more or less play on our own terms. And this is also part of the reason why I like to go Grenadiers > MG-42 > Grenadiers > MG-42, because that first Grenadier squad can panzerfaust the almost guaranteed Soviet Scout Car or bait a counter-sniper, allowing your own Sniper to counter-snipe. Inception? Yes. Mind-games? Yes. Also, if you can properly harass if not take the fuel, you have continued to mess with his plans, especially if it involved tanks.

Lastly, since we are talking about resources, this is a heavy Tier 1 start. That means your Tier 2 is going to be delayed, thus proper AT is going to come late. The better you can harass, or again even take the fuel, the more you delay their tech, making up for the heavy Tier 1. If you are still a little afraid, feel free to lay down Teller Mines as you should also have a fair bit of munitions.





Now you want to start teching up. Get a second Pioneer squad and construct the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie. Then send them off to do any back-capping, harassment, join the main force, etc. But now you have some options.




Here is another part where the flexibility of this strategy comes into play. I'm not here to hold your hand through every part, as we all know how situational CoH2 can be. What I will say though is that because this strategy relies so much on being mobile, a Pak-40 is not your best option. I'd recommend getting Panzergrenadiers, the Sd.Kfz. 222 Scout Car, the Sd.Kfz. 251 Half-Track, or a combination thereof.

In the case that the enemy does fall for our plan and they do try to counter your sniper, the Scout Car would be a good option. It has the ability to take out the Soviet Scout Car and hunt down snipers as it's quite fast and mobile. The half-track might not be a bad idea either, as it can re-inforce your troops on the field, making up for your lack of field presence earlier. As well, you could decide to put your Sniper in the HT to protect him and / or transport him around in it.

Panzergrenadiers would be good to get too. While expensive, they're quite tough, and good in all combat situations including against armor if you upgrade them with Panzerschrecks. That'd make them at least a good deterrent against enemy Scout Cars if they do not take them out. The choice is yours. Judge for yourself what your opponent is doing, has done, and will do, then based off that information make a decision. Your mid-game depends on it!



At this point in the game your sniper should have some veterancy and be even more effective. You have all the necessary units to counter numerous different threats. So, a good army composition. Hopefully you were successful in harassing their fuel, if not completely denying it, as well as securing your own. If so then you will have an advantage heading into late game.

|Late Game|

Now is the time to tech up again and get two Panzer IVs. They are fast tanks efficient in killing both infantry and enemy armor, which should be minimal if you had fuel control. The reason for getting two is so that you can properly take out an SU-85, and also basically for overwhelming force. Your machine-guns will be there to suppress any infantry who try to get off an anti-tank grenade, or in the case that they do cover the PIV.

With this advantage though, now is the time to be aggressive and push, including the flanks which shouldn't be heavily guarded as your opponent should be very focused elsewhere. At this point the game should just snowball either into their surrender or an eventual, inevitable victory from VP control. In extreme cases you can launch raids on their base, although it's not a good idea as that can be a good way to throw the game.



At this point in the fight it is less about keeping our Sniper alive. Of course, we don't want to deliberately sacrifice him, intentionally be careless or anything like that, but the primary focus has shifted to trying to finish off our opponent. Win the game. This allows more of your micro to be freed up for other tasks that you could say are now more important than our Sniper's life. Of course, keep in mind nothing is more scary than a veterancy three sniper!




I hope you've read everything so far and gave it a fair chance. Please let me know your thoughts on this fragile strategy. By fragile, I of course refer to the fact that if the Sniper dies early on you've basically been nailed into a coffin. Obviously there is a lot more work to be done on this, and I'll also have to be sure to keep this updated as patches are released if needed.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this strategy was not made with the intention of giving you a lot of map control. That is fine, because your goal is to play mind-games. Make him play on your own terms. Harass the fuel, take it completely if you can. Much like the Volks>Volks>Sniper>MG strategy of ToV, this does not need a lot of early map control in order to succeed.

Please consider it though and give it a try. Currently it somewhat works, so with enough constructive criticism I think we could make this much more legitimate, to the extent in which it can be used realistically in competitive play. I think a big part about this strategy is also how unorthodox it is and unexpected. Rarely do you see your opponent make that his first unit, but when you do I think many of us have an instinct that says counter it. And here we are using that against them.

In the near future after playing some more games and further refining this I'll post a replay and perhaps even cast a game to showcase this in action.



Link: http://www.coh2.org/replays/6520/mindblowing
Description: Nothing could go more wrong. In this game I am the one testing the strategy against a solid Soviet opponent, Jacob. Lose my first Pioneer squad minutes into the match. An hour long game but shows that you do not need to follow this strategy to the book as it is very flexible (I add a mortar onto my Tier 1, get a Pak-40 despite it not being recommended, among other things). Check it out.

this strategy seems to have some major flaws in my eyes! with only two grenadiers on the field, a clowncar-rush would totally destroy within one good attempt, they would kill everything.
the second big problem is the sniper itselve. if you play against a halfdecent sowjet, you wont kill his snipersquads, because he will retreat immediately after the first shot, but they will countersnipe you and very early!
third problem is map control. your first units on the field are a sniper and a pioneer, while your enemy might already have 1 engineer and two conscripts. if you haver to retreat the sniper just once, he will be able to cap huge parts of the map.
your fourth problem is a fast t70. without a pak, these little monsters would rape you, because you dont have pak and you dont have a pz4. shrecks are okay against t70, but they cost a ton of munis and will make the AI of pzgren squad much worse!

conclusion: the german sniper is not viable as a first unit. i would rather build mg gren gren gren and if he gets maxim, build a sniper LAST from T1, if you really want a sniper. at this point you will know, that he wont be able to field snipers, because if he does you can outtech him easily!

Well some1 could post replays of this strategy tested out and see how it handles in multiple situations (vs maxim or con or m3 spam)
Btw considering this guy above me if germans had 2 man sniper instead of 1 this would be much more viable strat but i cant be sure how it handles atm cuz its still not tested
All in all seems interesting strat, encouraging new strats with germans always welcome (have enough soviet ones as it is )
Cheer

this strategy seems to have some major flaws in my eyes! with only two grenadiers on the field, a clowncar-rush would totally destroy within one good attempt, they would kill everything.
the second big problem is the sniper itselve. if you play against a halfdecent sowjet, you wont kill his snipersquads, because he will retreat immediately after the first shot, but they will countersnipe you and very early!
third problem is map control. your first units on the field are a sniper and a pioneer, while your enemy might already have 1 engineer and two conscripts. if you haver to retreat the sniper just once, he will be able to cap huge parts of the map.
your fourth problem is a fast t70. without a pak, these little monsters would rape you, because you dont have pak and you dont have a pz4. shrecks are okay against t70, but they cost a ton of munis and will make the AI of pzgren squad much worse!

conclusion: the german sniper is not viable as a first unit. i would rather build mg gren gren gren and if he gets maxim, build a sniper LAST from T1, if you really want a sniper. at this point you will know, that he wont be able to field snipers, because if he does you can outtech him easily!

Appreciate the reply, friend.

I'm sure the strategy does have some major flaws at the moment, but part of the reason I posted it on here is to perfect it as best we can.

- This very well could be true if you don't use panzerfausts. While I am by no means a pro playing competitively at high levels, I have played against some solid Russian opponents and beaten them with this strat, including times where they rush Clown Cars to counter me.

- Of course you won't kill his sniper squads, I totally agree! The point of counter-sniping his counter-sniper (again, inception) is to force it to retreat. A Scout Car would be more ideal for actually hunting them down and killing it off, perhaps with a combination of the two.

- I am well aware that he can cap huge parts of the map. Please check out my showcase replay (http://www.coh2.org/replays/6520/mindblowing) where that's what happens to me. He also rushes a T70, but as you said I had a Pak-40 to counter it. Not sure if you played Tales of Valor. However, had you done so, you'd be aware of the Volks>Volks>Sniper>MG strat which also did not need a lot of map control.

- In that replay I literally had to retreat my sniper after two shots and I lost my Pioneer squad soon after (spoiler alert ). Nothing could have gone more wrong, but it did not necessarily determine the rest of the game. It didn't help, that's for sure, but I fought my way out.

Now I have some questions for you. Do you think making a Scout Car mandatory out of Tier 2, unless the enemy goes for a T70, would be a good solution?

P.S. Also, proper focus on the fuel can help delay your opponent's tech, T70 rush, etc.

Well some1 could post replays of this strategy tested out and see how it handles in multiple situations (vs maxim or con or m3 spam)
Btw considering this guy above me if germans had 2 man sniper instead of 1 this would be much more viable strat but i cant be sure how it handles atm cuz its still not tested
All in all seems interesting strat, encouraging new strats with germans always welcome (have enough soviet ones as it is )
Cheer

Good points, with a German sniper team this could actually be a lot easier. I added a Showcase section where I will add replays (as well as replays of other people using this strategy / playing against it). In fact, I just put one up where my opponent actually rushes a T-70.

Excelent , get on it people !!

- This very well could be true if you don't use panzerfausts. While I am by no means a pro playing competitively at high levels, I have played against some solid Russian opponents and beaten them with this strat, including times where they rush Clown Cars to counter me.

panzerfausts are just a soft counter to m3, if you watch the langeskaya-tournamentgame where omgpop spammed scoutcars agaisnt tititwister, you will know, that two grenadiers are not enough, especially if you divide your forces, but even if you have them clumped up! you could build 3 grens 1 mg instead, that whould help a bit.

- Of course you won't kill his sniper squads, I totally agree! The point of counter-sniping his counter-sniper (again, inception) is to force it to retreat. A Scout Car would be more ideal for actually hunting them down and killing it off, perhaps with a combination of the two.

the thing is: you can shoot him a thousand times and you wont kill his squad. he will shoot one time and your 360mp are gone. with the current snipermeta, playing a german sniper with sowjet snipers on the field is crazy! you will lose your sniper really at some point (very early), if your opponent is good.

- I am well aware that he can cap huge parts of the map. Please check out my showcase replay (http://www.coh2.org/replays/6520/mindblowing) where that's what happens to me. He also rushes a T70, but as you said I had a Pak-40 to counter it. Not sure if you played Tales of Valor. However, had you done so, you'd be aware of the Volks>Volks>Sniper>MG strat which also did not need a lot of map control.

yes, i have played coh1 the thing is, that as WM you know, that the american sniper would come later and delay the US tech AND that you would have a good chance to kill him, because he is only a single man. a sowjet sniper will not delay his tech, will not come that much later and will probably kill your sniper, which is probably gg, because no map, ressources and the enemy has snipers.

Now I have some questions for you. Do you think making a Scout Car mandatory out of Tier 2, unless the enemy goes for a T70, would be a good solution?

an early scout car might help, but guards and mines are just an easy counter to the scout car. a clever opponent will wait until he has guards, then tech t1, get two snipers and snipe you into hell, while you have nothing to counter him.
i think the t70 doesnt matter, because it comes much later than guards or mines, which already counter the SC.

P.S. Also, proper focus on the fuel can help delay your opponent's tech, T70 rush, etc.

moar fuel is always better

btw. have you seen the langeskaya-tournament? if not, do so! one t70 is nothign to fear, two will kill you slowly, three will instarape you with this strat

- I am well aware that he can cap huge parts of the map. Please check out my showcase replay (http://www.coh2.org/replays/6520/mindblowing) where that's what happens to me. He also rushes a T70, but as you said I had a Pak-40 to counter it.

watched it. the sowjet player was VERY defensive in the beginning, which is totally wrong against snipers. still he managed to get an early t70, but he just build one, was very defensive with it (why did he drove out your the base???). he didnt build a second or third, he didnt circlestrafe your pak, which would have been the end, he built t2 instead of t1, he lost IS2s like they were m3s, he never ever pulled a good flank in early ... horrible

your enemy was not even decent, but he still managed to get huge parts of the maps and control them. on other maps it might have been much worse for you.

if he had done sniper+su85spam, he would have won with ease.

still gg from you, i didnt notice many mistakes. the biggest might have been your doctrine-choice, jägerarmor or spearhead would have been much better for you!

panzerfausts are just a soft counter to m3, if you watch the langeskaya-tournamentgame where omgpop spammed scoutcars agaisnt tititwister, you will know, that two grenadiers are not enough, especially if you divide your forces, but even if you have them clumped up! you could build 3 grens 1 mg instead, that whould help a bit.

the thing is: you can shoot him a thousand times and you wont kill his squad. he will shoot one time and your 360mp are gone. with the current snipermeta, playing a german sniper with sowjet snipers on the field is crazy! you will lose your sniper really at some point (very early), if your opponent is good.


yes, i have played coh1 the thing is, that as WM you know, that the american sniper would come later and delay the US tech AND that you would have a good chance to kill him, because he is only a single man. a sowjet sniper will not delay his tech, will not come that much later and will probably kill your sniper, which is probably gg, because no map, ressources and the enemy has snipers.


an early scout car might help, but guards and mines are just an easy counter to the scout car. a clever opponent will wait until he has guards, then tech t1, get two snipers and snipe you into hell, while you have nothing to counter him.
i think the t70 doesnt matter, because it comes much later than guards or mines, which already counter the SC.


moar fuel is always better

btw. have you seen the langeskaya-tournament? if not, do so! one t70 is nothign to fear, two will kill you slowly, three will instarape you with this strat

So Sniper > Grenadiers > Grenadiers > Grenadiers > MG-42? Hmm, could work, I will definitely take your advice and try it. You'd have more infantry presence that way too, not just a soft-counter to the M3.

A well microed German Sniper should have no problem against a Russian one. I wait for him to shoot, I counter-snipe, then pull back. Always staying at max range. More than likely he'll retreat. You don't have to necessarily kill his sniper, just keep him away.

Well I think that's a bit of negative thinking, that the Soviet sniper will more than likely kill mine. If anything it just comes down to who can micro better. You keep your sniper at max distance when shooting a Conscript squad, for example, the sniper will need to more than likely be right next to the Conscript squad for the counter-snipe. A bit close for comfort, something a decent Soviet player probably wouldn't do if he was patient.

Going out of the way to build an entirely separate building plus two sniper squads and 1-2 M3's would definitely off-set his strategy and tech in my eyes. Aren't Guards doctrinal? So that scenario would theoretically only work if he picked the correct commander. I think the best course of action then would be to get a Pak-40 if your enemy has Guards and mines.

watched it. the sowjet player was VERY defensive in the beginning, which is totally wrong against snipers. still he managed to get an early t70, but he just build one, was very defensive with it (why did he drove out your the base???). he didnt build a second or third, he didnt circlestrafe your pak, which would have been the end, he built t2 instead of t1, he lost IS2s like they were m3s, he never ever pulled a good flank in early ... horrible

your enemy was not even decent, but he still managed to get huge parts of the maps and control them. on other maps it might have been much worse for you.

if he had done sniper+su85spam, he would have won with ease.

still gg from you, i didnt notice many mistakes. the biggest might have been your doctrine-choice, jägerarmor or spearhead would have been much better for you!

He probably drove out of my base because he was afraid of me panzerfausting it and then getting a Pak-40 (which I started production of basically when he left the base, so it wouldn't have been too long). He was just naturally a more conservative player, which I suppose is better than being overly aggressive and careless.

Yes, it was rather odd that he didn't get Tier 1 to counter my sniper. Then again, he probably had entirely other plans in mind, and an entirely different strategy that he didn't want to get offset by just one of my units. So he probably told himself "stick to the plan" in hopes that it would work, and it could have if he'd got SU-85s. Not to say I couldn't have killed his SU-85s, but it would've been a lot tougher than T-34s which are practically useless at the moment aside from being able to ram my tanks (cheap ability).

I don't think you noticed, but the reason I went Jager Infantry was because his first T-34 barely managed to escape my Panzer IV, so I picked that commander and dropped artillery on him at the last second lol. COMPLETELY agree though, I will definitely now start trying this strategy with Jager Armor and some other commanders.

Thanks for all the advice and constructive criticism. With it I think we can actually make something here that is legitimate, not so fragile, and works.

Didn't watch the replay...but when the uniqueness of a strategy is based around its early build order and it fails to maintain any map control in the early game, then I'd call it questionable at best. It sounds like you won that game in spite of this strategy and not because of it.

Didn't watch the replay...but when the uniqueness of a strategy is based around its early build order and it fails to maintain any map control in the early game, then I'd call it questionable at best. It sounds like you won that game in spite of this strategy and not because of it.

That could be true. Thanks for the response.

He probably drove out of my base because he was afraid of me panzerfausting it and then getting a Pak-40 (which I started production of basically when he left the base, so it wouldn't have been too long). He was just naturally a more conservative player, which I suppose is better than being overly aggressive and careless.

a t70 can withstand three or four pakshots, so the best would have been to kite your troops. the aggressiveness depends on your build, for example a scoutcar or maxim-tech should be played much more agressive than a sniperbuild the t70 has just a small time, where it is truly effective, so you need to push push push!

we can actually make something here that is legitimate, not so fragile, and works.

i think getting the sniper after the grens and mgs is much better, because first of all you have a unit to provide sight for your sniper, to cap, to negate houses to the enemy and so on.
and im not sure, whether your opinion about the countersnipe is correct. in my games where i had a german sniper, i often lost them to sowjet snipers running around, because i sniped the first one and the second one instantly countersniped me. and that was the case, when my enemy was not caring attention to his snipers and i was! if your enemy is good, he will change his plans immediately fater seeing you sniper, he will go T1, get his sniper-team into cover, hold fire, wait until your sniper comes and boom. gg.

thats the second reason why i would build grens before getting a sniper, because if you see T1 from sowjet, i wouldnt risk to build a sniper. against a t2sowjet, this would be definetely a viable strat.

a t70 can withstand three or four pakshots, so the best would have been to kite your troops. the aggressiveness depends on your build, for example a scoutcar or maxim-tech should be played much more agressive than a sniperbuild the t70 has just a small time, where it is truly effective, so you need to push push push!


i think getting the sniper after the grens and mgs is much better, because first of all you have a unit to provide sight for your sniper, to cap, to negate houses to the enemy and so on.
and im not sure, whether your opinion about the countersnipe is correct. in my games where i had a german sniper, i often lost them to sowjet snipers running around, because i sniped the first one and the second one instantly countersniped me. and that was the case, when my enemy was not caring attention to his snipers and i was! if your enemy is good, he will change his plans immediately fater seeing you sniper, he will go T1, get his sniper-team into cover, hold fire, wait until your sniper comes and boom. gg.

thats the second reason why i would build grens before getting a sniper, because if you see T1 from sowjet, i wouldnt risk to build a sniper. against a t2sowjet, this would be definetely a viable strat.

True, your strategy of course determines your aggressiveness. What if we tried replicating the vCoH strategy? Grenadiers > Grenadiers > Sniper > MG? Think it'd work?

And as I said earlier, usually I keep my sniper at max distance from the enemy. And normally my Grenadiers and so forth would be fairly close to their infantry. So assuming I shot and then as I pulled my sniper back into the fog of war they tried to counter-snipe, they would literally have to be almost next to my Grenadiers. And I don't think any Soviet player in their right mind would risk that.

That's also assuming I'm completely unaware of my opponent even having a sniper (which I always assume he does just to be safe). As well, if I do know he does indeed have a sniper, I wait for my opportunity which is when he shoots. That allows me time to counter-snipe one man, pull back, thus forcing him to retreat. You can argue, "Oh but you didn't kill him!" but I think forcing him alllll the way back to his base over and over makes his sniper equally as ineffective.

Worse comes to worse you do what a lot of American and Wehrmacht players would do. Get a second sniper. Two Ostheer snipers vs. a Soviet Sniper team.

True, your strategy of course determines your aggressiveness. What if we tried replicating the vCoH strategy? Grenadiers > Grenadiers > Sniper > MG? Think it'd work?

it would work better!
still i would wait with this strat until german sniper gets buffed or sowjet sipers get nerfed.

That's also assuming I'm completely unaware of my opponent even having a sniper (which I always assume he does just to be safe). As well, if I do know he does indeed have a sniper, I wait for my opportunity which is when he shoots. That allows me time to counter-snipe one man, pull back, thus forcing him to retreat. You can argue, "Oh but you didn't kill him!" but I think forcing him alllll the way back to his base over and over makes his sniper equally as ineffective.

have you ever played against a half-decent sowjet going t1? he will know, that you have a sniper around, so he will wait.
even if your chance is 75% to win a sniper-battle your sniper will not be worth his money. actually, the chance is 50% or lower, because your enemy has probably more units giving him more vision.
if you somehow know how to counter sowjet snipers with a german one effectively against a good player, share a replay!

it would work better!
still i would wait with this strat until german sniper gets buffed or sowjet sipers get nerfed.

have you ever played against a half-decent sowjet going t1? he will know, that you have a sniper around, so he will wait.
even if your chance is 75% to win a sniper-battle your sniper will not be worth his money. actually, the chance is 50% or lower, because your enemy has probably more units giving him more vision.
if you somehow know how to counter sowjet snipers with a german one effectively against a good player, share a replay!

I just thought of something. Recon run maybe? I think that reveals snipers (even when they're cloaked).

I'd get the German sniper after a gren if you're trying this. Otherwise you're just going to have a ton of wasted time from your sniper retreating.

I like the sound of that. Will definitely try it!

Wow this game is frustrating sometimes. Nothing beats losing 5 games in a row. Even when trying other strategies. Will try again tomorrow.

Wow this game is frustrating sometimes. Nothing beats losing 5 games in a row. Even when trying other strategies. Will try again tomorrow.

Yea, I know that feel. I played about 10 games last night and lost about 8 of 'em. Most were really close and enjoyable. Only about 2-3 were complete blow outs. At this point I think I'm leveling up faster than I deserve