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12 Dec 2017, 19:40 PM
#1541
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



So you are implying that vet 3 ppsh cons should be able to rush no hourra to green covered vet 4 falls and kill them all ?


The outcome of that engagement was surely not ballanced but I think it's worth noting that in case of this engagement the green cover favours cons, not falls becouse it doesn't apply at such range either way and it doesn't allow falls to spread out. It also reduces damage of potential defending granade thrown on con squad path.
12 Dec 2017, 19:54 PM
#1542
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



The outcome of that engagement was surely not ballanced but I think it's worth noting that in case of this engagement the green cover favours cons, not falls becouse it doesn't apply at such range either way and it doesn't allow falls to spread out. It also reduces damage of potential defending granade thrown on con squad path.
this hurts my brain are you implying that out of cover they would do better or what ?
12 Dec 2017, 19:56 PM
#1543
avatar of RussianHamster

Posts: 88

Ok, now ALL allies basic and elite inf agains falls without veterancy:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/208983053
As we can see falls can beat most of basic inf squads without vet and weapon, but have huge problems against elite inf and additional weapons.
12 Dec 2017, 19:56 PM
#1544
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



The outcome of that engagement was surely not ballanced but I think it's worth noting that in case of this engagement the green cover favours cons, not falls becouse it doesn't apply at such range either way and it doesn't allow falls to spread out. It also reduces damage of potential defending granade thrown on con squad path.


.....what ?

So the enagagement outcome would be different if they used no cover ?
12 Dec 2017, 19:56 PM
#1545
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



Not really.

If you lay down MechHQ at the precise moment you have enough for the MechHQ (but not enough for a luchs), you need to wait for 60 more fuel for the Luchs.

60 more fuel is easily 2-3 minutes. The MechHQ will finish being produced well before those 2-3 minutes you are waiting to receive fuel income.

If you do this, and the proposed cooldown is shorter than, say, 2 minutes it will have no effect of delaying the Luchs.


The proposed cooldown comes with a build time increase to 65 seconds as stated earlier. But very well, have it your way.



That's a performance adjustment to the Luchs. We find there's nothing wrong with Luchs performance, and altering its vet0 performance would make a delayed luchs a severe liability. Nobody would build it, and if you don't have luchs you don't have MechHQ.


When you alter its stats, there is no need to delay :)


This is sort of like the Flame Hetzer in DBP. For anybody that's used it briefly, it's Vet0 performance is extremely meh. However if you get the Hetzer at Vet1, it becomes actually damn good for cost.

One of the upcoming changes to the Hetzer is giving it its Vet1 performance at Vet0, just to facilitate it entering the field.


Cool changes.
12 Dec 2017, 19:57 PM
#1546
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



.....what ?

So the enagagement outcome would be different if they used no cover ?


this hurts my brain are you implying that out of cover they would do better or what ?


Yes they would. Green and yellow cover doesn't apply under 10 range. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XID8YfsWfZo

Mind that cons shoot only when stationary when ourah ability is used so they don't fire a single shot before entering 10 range, meaning that falls don't benefit from their cover at all.
12 Dec 2017, 20:00 PM
#1547
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Sorry, I don't get the idea of your post. Yes, commando changes are stupid and potentially dangerous to balance. Yes, okw mostly has 4 men squads. They have 2 that have more than 4 men and both of them cause balance issues since okw release. There is nothing new here.
OK maybe I explained in badly, what I mean is that its true that falls weapon have better dps curve, but they are 4 vs 5 weapons losing around 20-30 dps at close and stealth + ambush fix commando long range problem , With bren they should either lose their close range dps or not gain such an advantage at long range.

Falls are just bad right now I would suggest giving them 15% accuracy at vet 2 and still give them another 15% at vet 5
12 Dec 2017, 20:04 PM
#1548
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660





Yes they would. Green and yellow cover doesn't apply under 10 range. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XID8YfsWfZo

Mind that cons shoot only when stationary when ourah ability is used so they don't fire a single shot before entering 10 range, meaning that falls don't benefit from their cover at all.


OFC.

1) they used no hourra
2) they have shot all the way to cover
3) you are trying to justify top level crap you apparently haven't seen at all.

I did+.5 ask you to explain point blank mechanic, I asked you where's the difference if they haven't fired a single nade anyway.
12 Dec 2017, 20:09 PM
#1549
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



Regardless of vet 5 15% accuracy not working, it still seems out of whack that vet 4 falls would perform similarly, given that many other units get 40% accuracy bonuses at vet 2, waitng until vet 5 to get 30% accuracy total seems very out of line with other units veterancies. This is particularly bad considering they do not recieve any weapon upgrades, meaning that their veterancy could be better to compensate when it is in fact worse.

Similarly though paratroopers have relatively poor poor veteran bonuses, but they have access to some of the best weapon upgrades available.


Elite units tend to get significantly lower vet bonuses than non-elite units. Precisely because Vet0 elite units are considerably stronger than Vet0 non-elite units.

Commandos in DBP get like +30% accuracy and -10% RA in total.
Paratroopers get +25% accuracy and -29% RA
Falls are meant to get +30% accuracy and -29% RA. However, 15% accuracy isn't applying properly, and even a 10% difference in infantry engagements is enormous.

Shock troops also get really low Vet bonuses.

Shot-range troops that come late need to have really good Vet0 performance, otherwise they will bleed like pigs. Similarly, they get bad Veterancy bonuses, so that they don't turn into wipe-gods if they ever make it to Vet3.



Sorry, I don't get the idea of your post. Yes, commando changes are stupid and potentially dangerous to ballance. Yes, okw mostly has 4 men squads. They have 2 that have more than 4 men and both of them couse ballance issues since okw release. There is nothing new here.


What's wrong exactly with Infiltration Commando changes? They're literally the most expensive Commando variant in the game now, considering you need to reinforce them to get their full squad, and they can't exactly wipe things anymore by popping in the middle of nowhere.

The glider drop from Commando doctrine is extremely potent.
12 Dec 2017, 20:09 PM
#1550
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474





Yes they would. Green and yellow cover doesn't apply under 10 range. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XID8YfsWfZo

Mind that cons shoot only when stationary when ourah ability is used so they don't fire a single shot before entering 10 range, meaning that falls don't benefit from their cover at all.
i know i tested it but what would change if they were in no cover ? they would stil be in the 10 lethal range of the ppsh
12 Dec 2017, 20:12 PM
#1551
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



OFC.

1) they used no hourra
2) they have shot all the way to cover
3) you are trying to justify top level crap you apparently haven't seen at all.

I did+.5 ask you to explain point blank mechanic, I asked you where's the difference if they haven't fired a single nade anyway.


Give me the link to the video then becouse apparently we didn't watch the same one.

I also am not justifying cons in that engagement. I already said it was not ballanced in my opinion, do I need to repeat that over and over again?

If they were spread out they would be further from con models on average and that makes a difference for example for mosin damage curve. They would also recive less damage from missed shots than when clumbed up.

Still these are very slight differences and I didn't mean to say that the outcome would be swayed if they were out of cover, more that pointing that they lose in green cover makes no sense becouse that is not an advantage here.
12 Dec 2017, 20:13 PM
#1552
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Give me the link to the video then becouse apparently we didn't watch the same one.

I also am not justifying cons in that engagement. I already said it was not ballanced in my opinion, do I need to repeat that over and over again?

If they were spread out they would be further from con models on average and that makes a difference for example for mosin damage curve. They would also recive less damage from missed shots than when clumbed up.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/208418162
no hurra and not hit the dirt which they can beat ober with
12 Dec 2017, 20:21 PM
#1553
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/208418162
no hurra and not hit the dirt which they can beat ober with


Do you mean fall and the example when they win at one model due to rng? Sure, falls should probably win every time in that one, with one or 2 models left. Still this one is not actually that bad as it gives ages to react. I was talking about the ourah one when cons won quickly with 5 models left becouse that actually is pretty imballanced.
12 Dec 2017, 20:23 PM
#1554
avatar of RussianHamster

Posts: 88



Do you mean fall and the example when they win at one model due to rng? Sure, falls should probably win every time in that one, with one or 2 models left. Still this one is not actually that bad as it gives ages to react. I was talking about the ourah one when cons won quickly with 5 models left becouse that actually is pretty imballanced.

Cons won most of that tests. Honestly falls win only 2 of the 6 or 7 tests, and one of wins was with the officier aura.
12 Dec 2017, 20:25 PM
#1555
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

I assume you are running each test 5+ times and not just once?
12 Dec 2017, 20:27 PM
#1556
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885


Cons won most of that tests. Honestly falls win only 2 of the 6 or 7 tests, and one of wins was with the officier aura.


Yeah, I've seen most of them now. It shows that there really is something wrong with the ballance between these 2 units. Still, you should keep in mind that you are also using cons in the way they are ment to be used, while falls are being used like nobody ever does.
12 Dec 2017, 20:28 PM
#1557
avatar of RussianHamster

Posts: 88

I assume you are running each test 5+ times and not just once?

Only with cons, i have no time to test all of allies inf 5+ times.
With vet cons I make 6 or 7 tests.
12 Dec 2017, 20:32 PM
#1558
avatar of RussianHamster

Posts: 88



Yeah, I've seen most of them now. It shows that there really is something wrong with the ballance between these 2 units. Still, you should keep in mind that you are also using cons in the way they are ment to be used, while falls are being used like nobody ever does.

I put falls into green cover and cons rushing them from long range, so i think it situation much better for falls, then for cons. Ofc we can use hold fire and nades, but I trying to demonstrate what vet5 falls DPS are really worse than have all elite units. Only falls lost to cons without hurra, cons lost a fight to PGs, stormtroopers, obers and have 50-50 chanses with fussiliers.

To be honest, falls much better than cons without vet, but when we get falls into the game cons already will have vet (its a 3-4 mins of a game in my opinion).
12 Dec 2017, 20:38 PM
#1559
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7




And they are a great defensive suplement to cloaked rakketen. First you hit tank with rakketen, then you faust it with cloaked Falls and then you finish it off. Your opponent wont even notice what has happened before its too late :)

12 Dec 2017, 20:45 PM
#1560
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885




And they are a great defensive suplement to cloaked rakketen. First you hit tank with rakketen, then you faust it with cloaked Falls and then you finish it off. Your opponent wont even notice what has happened before its too late :)



In this case I think I would prefer to have double raketen :P
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