Some concerns with Panzerfuseliers.

Hell at the end of the war Germans were fighting Germans.

It is indeed a great moment in history, unfortunately unknown because not aligned with the image allies wanted to give (rightfully, in war time).

It just shows how the support among wehrmacht ranks for NSDAP was low.
Only 33% of wehrmacht members were NSDAP members, despite it assured advantages.
Those people were fighting for their country, their people, not that sick ideology, and eventually opposed to the madness as country defense "wasn't an issue anymore", freeing those prisoners and showing every men has a little of hamanity to distinguish among orders/fanatism and loyalty/service.

This and the several coups trying to kill adolf shitler.

They aren't overperforming at all, they lose to rifleman unless those get outplayed and drop lile flies at vet 5 with 0.81 RA.
The dps difference and RA difference for only 3 mp per model is balanced.

Except that waffen SS started to accept non german to replenish market garden and battle of the bulge losses.
Old man troops, calles volkssturm, didn't paretecipate into ardennes offensive or battle of the bulge, which instead relied on reformed grenadiers regiments.
This explains why without us air support the early phases of ardennes offensives were successful.

You guys are confusing 1945 germany i guess.

Look at the conscripts and tell me the Volks arent overperforming.

Back in the day they were both meatshields, now the volks are as cheap as cons, as versitile but can compete with riflemen which is stupid because of that STG upgrade.

Just increase their cost to make them a bit less spammable. Same aplies to Fuziliers and their low popcap.

Look at the conscripts and tell me the Volks arent overperforming.

Back in the day they were both meatshields, now the volks are as cheap as cons, as versitile but can compete with riflemen which is stupid because of that STG upgrade.

Just increase their cost to make them a bit less spammable. Same aplies to Fuziliers and their low popcap.

"I need to show a unit is overperforming so wait let me just get as perfect example a well known UP unit nobody uses over penals except for doctrinal ppsh"

Seems legit !!!

Back in the days volks had shreck, they never had any meatshield role ever.
Nor that they were meant to, cons were, and had a good maxim/tier 2 to complement it.

People complain about volks being only slighly less good than 1 bar rifles for a total mp difference of 3 mp per model and 0 muni difference but you are conviniently forgetting cons cost 5 mp less per model.

Why a unit with 0.81 RA should cost more than that if it has inferior dps to anything but an actually UP unit that ADDICTIONALLY, EVEN IF IT WASN'T OP, it should be TRULY dirtly cheap cannon fodder priced 20 mp per model, litterally NOTHING ?
AND, EVEN FREAKING WORSE, PEOPLE BITCH ABOUT VET 5 volks performances when okw can't build caches and has extremely expensive armor because of that.

IT'S A JOKE....XD

"I need to show a unit is overperforming so wait let me just get as perfect example a well known UP unit nobody uses over penals except for doctrinal ppsh"

Seems legit !!!

Back in the days volks had shreck, they never had any meatshield role ever.
Nor that they were meant to, cons were, and had a good maxim/tier 2 to complement it.

People complain about volks being only slighly less good than 1 bar rifles for a total mp difference of 3 mp per model and 0 muni difference but you are conviniently forgetting cons cost 5 mp less per model.

Why a unit with 0.81 RA should cost more than that if it has inferior dps to anything but an actually UP unit that ADDICTIONALLY, EVEN IF IT WASN'T OP, it should be TRULY dirtly cheap cannon fodder priced 20 mp per model, litterally NOTHING ?
AND, EVEN FREAKING WORSE, PEOPLE BITCH ABOUT VET 5 volks performances when okw can't build caches and has extremely expensive armor because of that.

IT'S A JOKE....XD

Dont get me wrong both Penals and Volks should be tuned down a bit. Penals perhaps more.

You are forgetting that USF needs to pay 150 mp and fuel for BARs in order to reach the same level of the volks. And another 150 mp and 25 fuel in order to get nades. And then after 120 munis additionally the riflemen become better. Meanwhile the OKW guy floats enough MP to get a 4-5 unit volks blob with STGs.

Also not even the doctrinal PPSh can make cons reach the level of Volks, they are still trash.

And yes Volks were frequently used as meatshields but with shreks. The Obers were the main anti infantry unit.

Not to mention cons have to tech up all their nades ontop of that...

"I need to show a unit is overperforming so wait let me just get as perfect example a well known UP unit nobody uses over penals except for doctrinal ppsh"

Seems legit !!!

Back in the days volks had shreck, they never had any meatshield role ever.
Nor that they were meant to, cons were, and had a good maxim/tier 2 to complement it.

People complain about volks being only slighly less good than 1 bar rifles for a total mp difference of 3 mp per model and 0 muni difference but you are conviniently forgetting cons cost 5 mp less per model.

Why a unit with 0.81 RA should cost more than that if it has inferior dps to anything but an actually UP unit that ADDICTIONALLY, EVEN IF IT WASN'T OP, it should be TRULY dirtly cheap cannon fodder priced 20 mp per model, litterally NOTHING ?
AND, EVEN FREAKING WORSE, PEOPLE BITCH ABOUT VET 5 volks performances when okw can't build caches and has extremely expensive armor because of that.

IT'S A JOKE....XD

And no their tanks really arent expensive for their performance. The JP IV rivals the SU-85 for about the same cost. The PIV shits on the T-34 for a higher cost, it all makes sense.

Dont get me wrong both Penals and Volks should be tuned down a bit. Penals perhaps more.

You are forgetting that USF needs to pay 150 mp and fuel for BARs in order to reach the same level of the volks. And another 150 mp and 25 fuel in order to get nades. And then after 120 munis additionally the riflemen become better. Meanwhile the OKW guy floats enough MP to get a 4-5 unit volks blob with STGs.

Also not even the doctrinal PPSh can make cons reach the level of Volks, they are still trash.

And yes Volks were frequently used as meatshields but with shreks. The Obers were the main anti infantry unit.

Not to mention cons have to tech up all their nades ontop of that...

1) And you are forgetting okw requires trucks, to tech up...what's the difference between side tech and extra tech ?

2) riflemen need a single bar to outdps volks

The bar dps INCREASE is far/near is 5/14.7 - 1.84/7.66= 3.16/7.04
The double stg dps INCREASE is far/near 3.98/16.54 - 3.86/5.88= 0.16/10,66

Both upgrades offer same increase of dps fore same muni, but then rifle start with better semi auto and have much better RA throughout the whole match.

The fact that usf can upgrade double bar and kill panzergrens at close range and ost grens at long range is another outdated bullshit, back when usf support weapons weren't as freaking good as they are now, when 50 cal didn't had AP from start AND sprint, when it didn't have a mortar deploying free smoke.

3) That's not true, volks always had bad RA, how can the most fragile mainline in game be used as meatshield ^~^

4) Still need to find the lvl1 noob that goes 5 volks, or better, i still need to fi.d the noob that loses to volks spam when he could simply pull out an aaht and fuck up everything.
Breaking news, volks don't have at anymore.

5) cons doctrinal ppsh added with tier 3 awesome RA make them a extremely good mainline for their price, they can indeed fight against volks, but well used.

I find funny that the mp difference argument went out of the window here
Apparently a 5 mp difference is irrelevant when a 3 mp difference in a faction where units are meant to balance lack of resources caches and expensive muni/fuel prices with a relatively better scaling is worth noting.

6) obers are still used because volks still drop like flies no matter what upgrade or sight in cover bonus they get, or fallsch,or Jli, or whatever you want to pull out for ai power.
Volks spam wasn't meta in last gcs at all and player complemented with either fallsh or obers.
Penals into lend lease and su was =/

7)And ? Extra side teching, like trucks, like battlephases, is that as hard as a concept ?

And no their tanks really arent expensive for their performance. The JP IV rivals the SU-85 for about the same cost. The PIV shits on the T-34 for a higher cost, it all makes sense.

The jadgpanzer 4 doesn't rival su, different roles, it is an anti tank destroyer with 185 average pen, su 85 is anti heavy for 220 average pen.
Su 85 has better pen, can provide vision for itself, can rotate much faster.
Jadgpanzer 4 will hardly penetrate pershing, is2, churchill, but will be optimal against other tank destroyers thanks to the armor and stealth, it cost 135 fuel while a more versatile su 85 cost 110 fuel.
At this point i think you aren't aware of simply cold stats.

And you mean 150 fuel 110 pen panzer 4 ausf j ? It cries in a corner whenever a 130 fuel t34-85 or a 140 fuel ez8 comes, both have better penetration and better AI performances (and if for some reason your mind is evaluating as argument the "they are doctrinal" remember this is a thread about balancing a doctrinal unit )

The jadgpanzer 4 doesn't rival su, different roles, it is an anti tank destroyer with 185 average pen, su 85 is anti heavy for 220 average pen.
Su 85 has better pen, can provide vision for itself, can rotate much faster.
Jadgpanzer 4 will hardly penetrate pershing, is2, churchill, but will be optimal against other tank destroyers thanks to the armor and stealth, it cost 135 fuel while a more versatile su 85 cost 110 fuel.
At this point i think you aren't aware of simply cold stats.

And you mean 150 fuel 110 pen panzer 4 ausf j ? It cries in a corner whenever a 130 fuel t34-85 or a 140 fuel ez8 comes, both have better penetration and better AI performances (and if for some reason your mind is evaluating as argument the "they are doctrinal" remember this is a thread about balancing a doctrinal unit )

You should recheck the price for the su-85.

They have the same fuel price, yet vet 4-5 JP4 is the beast (it become the beast since vet 1 already LUL).
JP4 is design to counter Premium Mediums, Heavy inferno behemoth (you cannot rely on double rak btw) and allies TD until vet 5 ...

130 fuel isn't the same of 135.
How can you guys not understand that jadgpanzer 4 has less pen and counter mediums and tank destroyer but is useless if your opponent get heavy stuff ?
185 pen will hardly penetrate pershing or is2.

A tank destroyer with 220 penetration is designed to counter heavies.

This comparison makes as much sense as grens vs sherman...

130 fuel isn't the same of 135.
How can you guys not understand that jadgpanzer 4 has less pen and counter mediums and tank destroyer but is useless if your opponent get heavy stuff ?
185 pen will hardly penetrate pershing or is2.

A tank destroyer with 220 penetration is designed to counter heavies.

This comparison makes as much sense as grens vs sherman...

Furthermore apart from the activated abilities, Su85 has better offensive vet while the Jp4 has better defensive vet, its vet 2 +30% of the time turns a 58% chance to pen a tiger 2 to a 76% chance

Furthermore apart from the activated abilities, Su85 has better offensive vet while the Jp4 has better defensive vet, its vet 2 +30% of the time turns a 58% chance to pen a tiger 2 to a 76% chance

That's the point
It's not even one being better than the other, it's two tools with different tasks.
Would you compare an hmg with a mortar

Look at the conscripts and tell me the Volks arent overperforming.

Conscripts shouldn't be a standard. They are the crappiest infantry in the game.

Yet StG Volks also need to somewhat be able to fight Bren IS, BAR Rifles and Penals. If you compare those to Volks, the Volks are perfectly fine.

Conscripts needing an adjustment is a whole different issue.

Keep on track, people. This isn't about TD's.

This thread makes me want to ask two questions:

What allied heavies are there that OKW needs more penetration against?

And what do people think is the weakness of volksgrenadiers? Or of any of the infantry in this game for that matter?

This thread makes me want to ask two questions:

What allied heavies are there that OKW needs more penetration against?

And what do people think is the weakness of volksgrenadiers? Or of any of the infantry in this game for that matter?

IS 2, which has same armor of king tiger
Pershing, which has same armor of a tiger



Is a 0.81 RA opposed to a 0.61 riflemen RA enough ?
We can add the worse starting weapons, rifles always outdps volks.

IS 2, which has same armor of king tiger
Pershing, which has same armor of a tiger

One doctrinal unit for two of three allied factions have the same armor as OKWs stock heavy.

A puma can pen the rest of the allied arsenal pretty well.

One doctrinal unit for two of three allied factions have the same armor as OKWs stock heavy.

A puma can pen the rest of the allied arsenal pretty well.

And this somehow makes those less armored ?
And if the enemy pull those in and i have jadgpanzer 4 ? Drophack ?

WANT TO KNOW THE FUNNIEST PART ? both is2 and pershing are in super meta doctrines, king tiger is even less accessible as it requires a complete teching over a simple cp requirement

You didn't even know armor values.
Uninformed "hurr durr X is better than Y [insert 0 arguments here]" needs to stop.

I'm not saying jadgpanzer should get pen buff, but don't call it better than something WHEN CLEARLY IT ISN'T..

Btw puma has hard time in capitalizing on range against mediums armor because of piss poor pen...

One doctrinal unit for two of three allied factions have the same armor as OKWs stock heavy.

A puma can pen the rest of the allied arsenal pretty well.

The penetration of puma at range 50 is 80 less than half what su-76 has at range 60.

The chance to penetrate a T-34/76 (cheapest allied medium) is 53%, now if you want to call that "pretty well" that is different story...

On topic P.F need more pop. They are rather good but are doctrinal CP 2, need 90 mu upgrade and their far DPS is about equal to Penals.

One has to start with balancing infantry available before minute 1 one vs the other first and then go to doctrinal units.