Would you like to test the Artillery pit in the FBP?

Hello, now first of all, excuse me for the 3rd topic on this subject and the constant annoyance on my part about this (this is my admission of guilt).

But since the British emplacements are now in Relic's scope for the community balance team I decided this was my chance to shine some light on this much debated subject, the replacement for the Mortar pit, also known as Planet Smasher's Artillery Pit.

If you still don't know what I'm talking about, here is a link to his Steam workshop mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=679152285

Small description: Gives the British a mobile 3.2-inch mortar team, turns the mortar pit into a garrisonable emplacement for 100 manpower.

Pros: Gives the British more diversity and mobility (in terms of in-direct fire support), as well as a choice between digging in or being on the move (again, in terms of in-direct fire support.

Easier to balance, eliminates the mortar pit as an emplacement that needs balancing alongside the Bofors.

Cons: None that I can think of.

Implementation in another mod takes about 30 minutes (at least for me), I've tested it myself.

Long story short, I had the same idea a long time ago but I didn't realize it sadly because of my limited modding knowledge back then, but then one day Planet Smasher showed up and my dreams for the mortar pit were finally realized.

I also took the liberty to modify his mod myself: https://github.com/PlanetSmasherCOH/NoMoreSimCity (this is the actual mod files which can be modified)

Here are my results:

As you can see I've turned the mortar emplacement into a make-shift sort of bunker or bigger trench, I took the idea from when the Vickers Machine guns were allowed into the emplacements but due to being bugged in terms of ordering them where to aim this was removed from the vanilla game, I sort of added it back in and gave the ability to AT guns to garrison the emplacement as well to produce the above results.

Anyhow, back to the topic, just keep in mind that Svanh, another brilliant modder, also did something similar, in fact I am not sure if Svanh is the original creator of the mod since it was a long time ago but I took the files from Planet Smasher's github account.

And finally, I've PMed Mister Smith asking him to consider implemting the Artillery Pit in the FBP in a later version if possible for testing but I have yet to receive a reply. This is not an attack or mockery, I understand that he is a busy person and probably gets annoyed a lot, I'm just noting it down.

This topic is just meant to spread awareness about the mod and idea of the Artillery Pit and gather public support so it can be tested by more people in the Fall Balance Patch and if approved, added to the game officially.

Thank you very much for reading my long paragraphs of text and have a nice day/night, cheers!

Edit: I also forgot, thanks to Sturmpanther for the Highlights picture of the Artillery Pit on the front page. He also also part for my inspiration to keep pushing for this to be tested.

I also forgot to mention, could the people that voted "No" write a reason as to why they did it?

I just want to see why people don't actually like the idea.

Unless they are trolls of course, which is a big possibility.

Yes.

On its own merit, and I would love to see different ideas tried and tested instead of one idea tested and only tweaked.

As in, establish the merit of a change before tweaking the nuances of the change.

I voted yes. I think that this sort of thing is what the brits have been missing in both CoH1 and CoH2. this could be precisely what they need. They are supposed to be a defensive faction but relic have limited their options as to what kind of ordinance they can utilise in this format. This flexible method of defensive could, with the right implementation, open up new and fresh way of playing which is what this game needs imo. The only problem with this is that no one can truly know what kind of effect this would have on the meta. I haven't tried this mod yet and I will come back with more feedback. But for now i'll get behind it. Thanks A.Soldier for at least trying something new and changing the more and more stagnant and cancerous approaches to developing this game.

I voted yes. I think that this sort of thing is what the brits have been missing in both CoH1 and CoH2. this could be precisely what they need. They are supposed to be a defensive faction but relic have limited their options as to what kind of ordinance they can utilise in this format. This flexible method of defensive could, with the right implementation, open up new and fresh way of playing which is what this game needs imo. The only problem with this is that no one can truly know what kind of effect this would have on the meta. I haven't tried this mod yet and I will come back with more feedback. But for now i'll get behind it. Thanks A.Soldier for at least trying something new and changing the more and more stagnant and cancerous approaches to developing this game.

Thank you.

And yes I agree, that's why I liked this idea the first time I had it even before Planet Smasher/Svanh's mod.

As far as CoH goes tho, something similar could probably be implemented there as well, but I had a different idea there. My friend made an edit of the Great War mod for the game and in it he made all team weapons be able to dig in, as in spawn their respective emplacement to gain a defensive bonus, while removing all of the buildable by engineer emplacements in the game which was brilliant if you ask me.

So I had the same idea for the vanilla Brits, remove the MG nest, Mortar pit and give them a mobile Vickers MG team, a mobile mortar and a 6 pounder AT gun like in CoH 2, the MG and Mortar being able to dig in of course. But I only implemented the weapon teams but no emplacement spawning around them like in my friend's mod, got too lazy plus I wouldn't be able to play with anybody else online.

That's why I hoped that they'd further add mod support to the game's Workshop instead of just maps.

But yeah, as far as the Artillery Pit's implementation into the FBP as I already mentioned in the main OP, it took me about 30 minutes to implement it into my mod, you just need to copy paste a few things and rename a few other things and you should be ok.

Hell yeah, would really be a lot funnier to use, than just a normal one

I love the distribution so far, 50/50

I love the distribution so far, 50/50

And I'd love to know if the No voters have a genuine reason to vote no or they're just trolls because so far nobody has said why they voted no.

And I'd love to know if the No voters have a genuine reason to vote no or they're just trolls because so far nobody has said why they voted no.

To be honest, I voted no. I think the live game should be balanced (as far as possible), and mods/tuning packs are introduced to have more fun. So I like that Planet Smasher made this mod and I'd encourage these ambitious projects! But I just don't think it's a good idea to implement this in the live game, because this doesn't improve the balance in my opinion.

The current change of the mortar pit in the FBP is already very promising so I think the biggest frustrations are removed. The new trench/pit is much to strong, double at-gun would be devastating and not easily countered with mortars (which should be a weakness of teamweapons). Imagine a double land mattress pit, is that 'no more sim city' aswell?

I re-added the abandon critical in my own mod to make emplacements a bit weaker. This will only trigger beneath 25% HP though.

I also have to say that it is frustrating to see the visual collision between the pit and some bigger teamweapons . Hopefully this can be fixed in the future.

For the love of everything that is holy...no

Is brace something this artillery pit can do?

To be honest, I voted no. I think the live game should be balanced (as far as possible), and mods/tuning packs are introduced to have more fun. So I like that Planet Smasher made this mod and I'd encourage these ambitious projects! But I just don't think it's a good idea to implement this in the live game, because this doesn't improve the balance in my opinion.

The current change of the mortar pit in the FBP is already very promising so I think the biggest frustrations are removed. The new trench/pit is much to strong, double at-gun would be devastating and not easily countered with mortars (which should be a weakness of teamweapons). Imagine a double land mattress pit, is that 'no more sim city' aswell?

I re-added the abandon critical in my own mod to make emplacements a bit weaker. This will only trigger beneath 25% HP though.

I also have to say that it is frustrating to see the visual collision between the pit and some bigger teamweapons . Hopefully this can be fixed in the future.

As I said, it will make it easier to balance as you will have to balance the mortar team, not the entire emplacement and there will always be disagreements on the balance on emplacement, if you want an example then the Bofors is your answer.

Plus nobody said anything about having AT guns, Vickers MGs or the land mattress inside the emplacement, it would only be able to house Infantry and Mortars if implemented in the FBP and officially, nothing else.

It's just that I think as you said if all artillery was able to be garrisoned inside it would be too OP, plus I only tested out AT guns to see what happens, never said they should be allowed to garrison it as well.

The mortar emplacement will be there to keep the faction's uniqueness and to house the mobile mortars if the player decides to dig in somewhere and needs some extra protection for his mortars, that's all, since mortars are not allowed to be garrisoned in trenches for some odd reason anymore.

For the love of everything that is holy...no

I get that, but WHY is my question.

Is brace something this artillery pit can do?

No, it will just be a neutral or claimed garrisonable empty emplacement which may or may not cost man power, that decision falls on the balance team, not me.

it would only be able to house Infantry and Mortars if implemented in the FBP and officially, nothing else.

Then I probably misunderstood your original post.

The mortar emplacement will be there to keep the faction's uniqueness

This sounds fine to me

Then I probably misunderstood your original post.


This sounds fine to me

Yes, like I said I only experimented with putting AT guns in it, and yeah it would be OP if you could also stick land mattresses or other types of arty in it.

Normally, I would say yes. However due to the following issues, I don't think it's realistic to expect to trial Mortar Pit in FBP. And that's because of the usual scope shenanigans.

Firstly:

While Mortar Pit is in-scope, none of the following obvious features that directly affect the pit are part of the scope:
- Brace (only after a lot of begging we managed to bring it down to 20 seconds; that's still 20 seconds too long)
- Improved Fortifications (enjoy Mortar Pits now getting +140% effective improved durability vs its intended counters (compared to +20% before)
- Forward HQ (enjoy sim city aura)
- Stand Fast (enjoy unkillable mortar pits)
- Lava nade bonuses vs pits (enjoy seeing pits wiped effortlessly with Volks blobs)
- Fallschirmjagers (enjoy seeing the pit evaporate within seconds)

Basically, those artificial restrictions already hamstring us enough as it is. By the end of the day, we still have to deliver a Mortar Pit that is:
- Viable in vanilla-mode (i.e., no commander abilities)vs lava-nade-spamming Volks with STGs
- Killable in cancer-mode (e.g., improved fortification, stand-fast) vs LMG Grenadiers
- Cheap enough to punish HMG spam and allow people to push
- Expensive enough to prevent people from spamming it next to aura-giving FHQ's with auto-repair engineers

Secondly:
There's already 3 factions that start the game with a mortar. Do we need to have 4 factions out of 5 with an early mortar? Who's supposed to win in an OST vs UKF arty war in that case?

Doesn't that make those two factions feel even more similar than before?

Thirdly:
Synergy-wise, I've already seen that a scope-free mortar pit has good synergy with the rest of the faction (e.g., when Relic decides to let us fix 25-pounder barrage and the universal carrier), and also is not really that frustrating to take down.

So, now you have a faction that plays a bit different from the rest.

But yeah, for a potential future game, it would be nice if Relic avoided locking basic functionality behind expensive, all-or-nothing immobile emplacements. Also it would be nice if they provided mobile alternatives earlier, than let the vanilla 25 pounder barrage remain a completely useless ability 2 years into the game.

But, hey. At least Relic did it better than CoH1. Brits now have mobile suppression platforms and mobile AT guns.

Lastly:

At least, in the live (and FBP) when you do manage to take the Bofors down, the sim city is toast, and you can wipe everything.

If you have mobile mortar & Bofors, there's no way you will ever be able to catch the mortars. They'll just relocate and the sim city spammer will plop a new Bofors down for 280MP 30FU.

The mortars will just move to the next 280MP/30FU Bofors, like the three little piglets, and continue to nuke you, vetted and all.

Normally, I would say yes. However due to the following issues, I don't think it's realistic to expect to trial Mortar Pit in FBP. And that's because of the usual scope shenanigans.

Firstly:

While Mortar Pit is in-scope, none of the following obvious features that directly affect the pit are part of the scope:
- Brace (only after a lot of begging we managed to bring it down to 20 seconds; that's still 20 seconds too long)
- Improved Fortifications (enjoy Mortar Pits now getting +140% effective improved durability vs its intended counters (compared to +20% before)
- Forward HQ (enjoy sim city aura)
- Stand Fast (enjoy unkillable mortar pits)
- Lava nade bonuses vs pits (enjoy seeing pits wiped effortlessly with Volks blobs)
- Fallschirmjagers (enjoy seeing the pit evaporate within seconds)

Basically, those artificial restrictions already hamstring us enough as it is. By the end of the day, we still have to deliver a Mortar Pit that is:
- Viable in vanilla-mode (i.e., no commander abilities)vs lava-nade-spamming Volks with STGs
- Killable in cancer-mode (e.g., improved fortification, stand-fast) vs LMG Grenadiers
- Cheap enough to punish HMG spam and allow people to push
- Expensive enough to prevent people from spamming it next to aura-giving FHQ's with auto-repair engineers

Secondly:
There's already 3 factions that start the game with a mortar. Do we need to have 4 factions out of 5 with an early mortar? Who's supposed to win in an OST vs UKF arty war in that case?

Doesn't that make those two factions feel even more similar than before?

Thirdly:
Synergy-wise, I've already seen that a scope-free mortar pit has good synergy with the rest of the faction (e.g., when Relic decides to let us fix 25-pounder barrage and the universal carrier), and also is not really that frustrating to take down.

So, now you have a faction that plays a bit different from the rest.

But yeah, for a potential future game, it would be nice if Relic avoided locking basic functionality behind expensive, all-or-nothing immobile emplacements. Also it would be nice if they provided mobile alternatives earlier, than let the vanilla 25 pounder barrage remain a completely useless ability 2 years into the game.

But, hey. At least Relic did it better than CoH1. Brits now have mobile suppression platforms and mobile AT guns.

Lastly:

At least, in the live (and FBP) when you do manage to take the Bofors down, the sim city is toast, and you can wipe everything.

If you have mobile mortar & Bofors, there's no way you will ever be able to catch the mortars. They'll just relocate and the sim city spammer will plop a new Bofors down for 280MP 30FU.

The mortars will just move to the next 280MP/30FU Bofors, like the three little piglets, and continue to nuke you, vetted and all.

Your first and second points are why this suggestion is made, because it would simplify it down to not having the mortar pit and only having to balance the mortar itself.

As for your 3rd point, no arguing about that, however, balance problems still persist and more mobile focused British players like myself are hampered by not having a non-doctrinal mobile indirect fire support platform that doesn't cost fuel.

Plus keeping the mortar emplacement in the game and perhaps giving it a bonus for mortars garrisoned in it or something of that sort would still keep the British in a unique spot, I'd also like to remind you that all other Armies also have MGs, Mortars and Medium tanks, the OKW and USF were also considered "unique" before for not having some of these things but because players were hampered they were added, the MG34 and Panzer IV for the OKW and mortar for the USF respectively.

As for your last point, have you actually tried this? Since from experience I noticed that the mortar pit is the most numerous emplacement constructed in a Sim City and is vital to it because it's an unreachable hand that can slap your attack down and you can't do anything about it. Especially before with their easier vet acquiring, they were untouchable and indestructible even if you brought down the Bofors covering it. Of course this is from my personal observations, I am not arguing that you're wrote, I'm just merely asking if you're tried it and stating my opinion on the matter.

Thanks for giving my mod some spotlight again! As the creator, I would firstly like to say that I do not claim to be an expert on balance - I'm way too bad a player for that. But I would still like to encourage everyone to actually, properly read what this mod does before forming an opinion. Here's a link to the description.

My original implementation provides garrisoned artillery weapons with two benefits:
- Garrison cover (which is worse than green cover).
- A 15% range buff to barrage abilities, NOT auto-attack.

This has several consequences:
- If you're just gonna garrison a mortar and let it auto-fire, you literally get no benefit from the pit. It's better to just put the mortar in green cover somewhere.
- Garrisoning two units in the pit means they will get obliterated by enemy artillery REALLY fast. They will take damage in the same way as, for example, Tommies in an ambient building.
- A pit with two mortars will cost you 100+240+240=580MP. And its auto-attack range will still be 80.
- Putting a land mattress in there will not let it magically auto-fire.

I absolutely fail to see how this would be OP. It's probably more of a nerf, to be honest. But with all that said, I don't think a change of this magnitude will ever enter scope. I just made this mod for everyone who's sick of playing with or against sim cities.