2v2 automatch maps balance feedback [POLL]

This topic is mainly to survey how people feel about certain 2v2 maps, whether they are balanced or not. Are they giving advantage to one side or another and should some of them be removed etc.

Please share your opinions on which maps you think should be removed from 2v2 automatch or reworked and how. Please also remember to add your reasoning behind proposed changes.

Vast majority of the map is balanced towards factions, but one starting point has an advantage.
Especially Moscow outskirts and Semoisky are ridiculous in this, though otherwise well designed.

Anyway, factions balance should be adapted to maps, not the other way arounds

Rails and metals, Lisores river, Trois-Ponts, Camping in the Woods (the southern sight blocker at fuel is easy to get rid of, northern is impossible) and Gelserkirchen would be very simple to fix if someone has access to the map editor, it is only a matter of a blind-spot or a sight blocker removing/adding to the other side

BTW if I should comliment some map for a text-book design, it would be Lierneux. It gives equal opportunities to practicaly all non-underpowered units, by having both close range areas, long range areas and an urban area.
On top of that, it is very wide for a 2vs2 map, forcing players to hold down sectors and flank each other, rather than create a line
Just wish they wouldnt have both ammo points that close to each other.
Majority of maps should be like that

The problem with your poll:

Like Semisko, minks, hamlet, moscau: If you are south ggwp easy game.

If you get north get RIP.

The problem with your poll:

Like Semisko, minks, hamlet, moscau: If you are south ggwp easy game.

If you get north get RIP.

And on top of that why are they even keeping two identical moscow maps, kek? Imo balance starts with the maps not the factions and since there are so many talented map makers like trick why nobody is fixing the years old problems? On top of that they added pripyat sector, a cramped map with only 2 victory points and literally 0 cover. I mean who even makes those kinds of maps and who is stupid enough to add them to automatch? Or lisores river where the game takes twice as long as it would normally take because of the frikkin bridges. So many questions so few anwsers

And on top of that why are they even keeping two identical moscow maps, kek? Imo balance starts with the maps not the factions and since there are so many talented map makers like trick why nobody is fixing the years old problems? On top of that they added pripyat sector, a cramped map with only 2 victory points and literally 0 cover. I mean who even makes those kinds of maps and who is stupid enough to add them to automatch? Or lisores river where the game takes twice as long as it would normally take because of the frikkin bridges. So many questions so few anwsers

I love how you say "talented map makers like tric(k)" and then down the line "I mean who eve makes those kinds of maps and who is stupid enough to add them to automatch"

All the 2v2 maps were added with 10 day notice (if i recall correctly and they wanted 5 not 4) and lisores was outright stolen from stahaghel and adapted by myself and mono (mostly mono), and pripyat was still in testing and was slotted to be opened up more (in the middle) and given 2 more vps. I really like how you say pripyat is "cramped" when it is the size of a 3v3 and there is "literally no cover" when it is argueably covered in cover.

Also your opinion of the balance starts with the maps and not the factions, is and will forever be inherently wrong. It is 90% game design, 10% map design.

How are mappers supposed to map around... demos, garrison abuse, indirect fire abuse, sim city, call-ins, camping, 1 click arty RNG (devm vs vonivan?), lack of garrison clearing options, lack of snares, ect; the list goes on and on and on. This becomes even more true when they fuck with the stats every 6 months on things. Imagine if you will if the mortar pit range was increased by 30m, half the maps in 1v1 would become literally unplayable as you could put the pit in your base and cover over half the map (as is the case now on some maps to begin with)

I mean hell, by your logic VonIvan lost to devm on famyonville because of map design, not the fact that RNG arty decimated him.

A map that design is an issue is Pripyat, whoever is able to camp the mid wins, and even then the game drags on and typically favors axis. This WAS KNOWN when it was submitted, yet it was put in automatch, was this my doing? Nope.

Lets not even start on the fact that when we send in updated maps, they don't get added because Relic is severely undermanned. Case in point, westwall and halbe, both have been updated for months and neither versions was ever added (matter of fact westwall had the WRONG version added). Furthermore, when the maps are updated next to nobody (outside select top players) will even try them again. Everyone goes back to the comfort zone of the maps that they have been playing on for years, the meta changes but the maps don't (when ost mechanized was a thing, you didnt see people NOT trying it on crossing/crossroads/langres/famonv ect; ). They are familiar so people more readily adapt their playstyles to favor the map, this is not the case with community maps. 75% or more of the players lose on the map 1 time (the first time) and will forever and a day blame the map, veto it, and never play it again and go right back to their comfort zone. This is not to say that there might not be something wrong with a map, but when the whole of the community is more willing to look at the thing they know the last about (map making) and blame it. It really lead to anything getting done. Over half this community can't even articulate why the hell a map may be bad to begin with outside "it sucks and i hate it". Yet everyone openly acknowledges all kinds of shit wrong with the balance of the game, and somehow we are supposed to make "fair maps" when the balance is in flux, and when you lose on the map its the mappers fault and not the balance EVERYTIME? That makes literally zero sense.

There may be cases where it is indeed a map balance problem (and is most likely very easy to fix), but why would we bother? Mappers are the scapegoat of this community, we get nothing but shit for something that 90% of the time we have no control over.

I love how you say "talented map makers like tric(k)" and then down the line "I mean who eve makes those kinds of maps and who is stupid enough to add them to automatch"

Tric I didnt want to offend you in no way, shape or form. I have nothing else but deep respect for you Tric. I dont blame the map creators I thank them for their hard work and commitment. With that being said I prepared this poll to reveal which maps can and should be updated because they give unfair advantage to one starting side. Also maps that favor heavily one faction side should be removed from automatch until they get reworked.

If any modmakers want us to petition relic to support the idea I think everyone here will agree to do that no problemo. If you have a better idea how to change it then let us know, this is the place.

So far maps that seem to favor one starting point are: Moscow Winter, Moscow Summer, Semoisky Winter, Rzhev Winter, Hamlet (suggested by sturmpanther)

Maps that favor allies heavily: Liernaux, Dusseldorf

Maps that facor axis heavily: Minsk Pocket, Across the Rhine, Lisores River, Pripyat Sector, Rzhev Winter (?)

I strongly believe that relic even if undermanned would listen to our demands and act in accordance to them if we were able to articulate specifically what we want, prepare list of changes, prepare map updates, prepare reasoning behind all of the changes and show vast community support just leaving relic to accept and implement the changes. I believe we have that kind of power if we work together on the solution it must be clearly and specifically stated what it is that we want to change.

P.S.
Don't be offended but Pripyat in its current state blows, two vitory points, left side is coverless, right side and middle has walls but its painfully tight there, you can hardly fit a tank there not to mention manouver it. Its basically an axis free win. If I had to change pripyat I would try to open it up a little bit and work around buildings, make more of them accesible for infantry so you can manouver there more. There are too many chokepoints on that map and factions like brits or ost thrive on that map literally. Also it needs a third victory point somwhere (maybe place them in a shape of a triangle?).

Also my problem with lisores is that its too easy to camp on it making it an axis late game heaven. Each river crossing can be easily covered with 1 mg. Artillery spam is real on that map making it noob friendly. Lisores might be fine if the middle wasnt covered in mud and negative cover or something. Because otherwise you have arty fest and camping. Or even better rework the river, push it to the side and leave half of the map open and half covered with bridges and mud crossings for playtyle diversification.

damn.

dedication in to making this poll with so many questions and options is commendable.

Where is EINDHOVEN COUNTRY!

Semo, crossing, and karkov should be no brainers to be removed due to their size. They're 1v1 maps.

Moscow could be a great map if they fix the north, which is the time it takes to travel to the cut off and the time going from the cut off to the fuel.

Refinery has great potential with a few changes to pathways for infantry to travel through until medium tanks are out.

Minsk mostly just needs updates to their cut offs being so far away. Also this map is a little to symmetrical.

Rails and metal the southern fuel needs to be moved farther away from the house and I feel like that would solve most of the issues with the map.


These are just short little insights I've found would be helpful for 2v2 map pool from my time as a dedicated 2v2 player.

Far as balance goes I find that winter maps with frozen water tend to cause a lost of balance issues (Semois and Rzhev) any time where there is a disproportionate risk of losing units to sinking it just blows (East Semois and North Rzhev both have disproportionate risk in my estimation)

Elst and Schillberg were both pretty good additions to the rotation IMO. I veto Pripyat on all factions because I have ZERO patience for the camp fest that occurs 99.9% of the time on that map. +1 +1 +1 to Eindhoven coming back!

Wny no - bad map or not 2v2 map ?

I am missing the option "awful map design --> encourages/forces disgusting play styles" ^^

Example: Pripyat, Lisores, Trois Ponts

To summarize the polls so far this is where 2v2 maps stand:

Maps that favor allies (5):Trois Ponts, Ettelbruck Station, Liernaux, Düsseldorf, Semoisky (Winter)

Maps that favor axis (7): Crossing in the Woods, Rails and Metal, Minsk Pocket, Across the Rhine, Lisores River, Pripyat Sector, Road to Kharkov

Maps that are balanced (5): Elst Outskirts, Hamlet, Vaux Farmlands, Schilberg Outskirts, Gelsenkirchen Rafinery

Maps with one starting point advantage (5): Road to Kharkov, Moscow Outskirts (Summer), Moscow Outskirts (Winter), Semoisky (Winter), Rzhev Frontline (Winter)

crossing in the wood doesn't favor only axis, in 2v2 on this map with brits, one bofor can lock half of the map and get protected by some mortar pit.

So yeah, i know that bofor and mortar pit require huge skill to micro #LELIC but this map also favor the brits and brits are on allies side.

Didn't noticed who made this poll, but this is not relevant at all. Most issues come from which side you spawn on the map, not which faction you took.

I am missing the option: "slightly favors {insert faction}, but should be removed from map pool anyway".

Its not only about which side is favoured, but also about map design overall. Take Pripyat Sector, I dont even know how this map is allowed to exist. Two VPs and totally safe fuel means endless camp fests and arty cancer, but its not necessarily favouring one faction or side.

A lot of these maps aren't unbalanced but still shit mostly because they're too crowded. (too many houses, shot blockers etc)

Düsseldorf, Gelsenkirchen Rafinery - this two shitty maps should be removed from automatch forever.

What would you all say tends to make certain maps Axis or Allied favor? From what I gather, large open maps tend to favor Axis and tight quarters urban maps favor allies. Or is there more to it? And when a map is allied favored, is it favored for all Allied factions or just the British?

What would you all say tends to make certain maps Axis or Allied favor? From what I gather, large open maps tend to favor Axis and tight quarters urban maps favor allies. And when a map is allied favored, is it favored for all Allied factions, or just the British?

Tbh this poll is not accurate, brits although being allied prefer axis maps. So allied maps favor actually usf, soviets and maybe okw a bit, and axis maps favor brits and ost.