FBP V1.1 UPDATE

While I agree with smith on the stats and how the jackson appears to function in a vaccum, I think that some of the issue that will arise from the jackson will be the inability for the axis to react to the threat. USF has mobile, accurate, powerful infantry that with the right equipment can force the axis from a defensive position without a proper response.

Essentially, OKW lacks an AI medium to deal with advancing USF blobs. Smoke spam is near uncounterable, see Luvnest vs HelpingHans in GCS IIRC. And ostheer has no tank with 60 range to contest the jackson at max range, and is forced to move into infantry range to contest the destroyer or make large dives.

All factions have faction flaws in their design, this is some of them for OKW, Ostheer and USF.

Isn't that the point? Giving USF some Anchor for the lategame, as you are likely forced to go Artillery to be useful in teamgames as the Pershing can't maneuver and the Jackson is vaporized the second it leaves it's max firing range, they needed this to be playable in larger game modes than 2vs2 where they agression can sometimes be a boon but I believe they pale compared to Soviets going Lend Lease and Brits still with all their nerfs have much better lategame and Commanders.

Isn't that the point? Giving USF some Anchor for the lategame, as you are likely forced to go Artillery to be useful in teamgames as the Pershing can't maneuver and the Jackson is vaporized the second it leaves it's max firing range, they needed this to be playable in larger game modes than 2vs2 where they agression can sometimes be a boon but I believe they pale compared to Soviets going Lend Lease and Brits still with all their nerfs have much better lategame and Commanders.

The point I believe is just that, a strong suitable tank destroyer that can deal with axis lategame. That's fine imo, the issue I see with it is its high mobility. FFs and SU85s have their weakness of being flanked due to slow turret rotation and turretless vehicles. The jackson now does not have that issue. You don't got KT when you're up against an SU85 or a FF unless you're fully prepared on how you're going to counter it, because those tanks are designed to destroy it. While the jackson now can fill that role, the high mobility and relativly fast turret rotation makes flanks on it ineffective, as it can just drive away at a speed similar to the p4 or panther. Now with the HP buff, the RoF of panthers will be their downfall if attempting to flank given that RNGesus decides to favor the axis moving debuff. But the panther issue is their own problem.

TL : DR

I understand trying to fill in gaps in faction design, but if you need to sacrifice entire factions as a result due to "scope" it need to be addressed in the face of the people setting the scope so they understand the result.

TheMachine, Mr. Smith, and Mirgaefla all knew nerfing penals in WBP would push maxim spam, but relic still allowed it to go through.

After playing around in the mod for an evening, I find the fact that a jackson can survive three PAK shots and a faust to be a little much. They can survive a teller mine and a PAK shot too.

I think 520 to 560 health may be more appropriate. 560 works for the M10 nicely. And the StuG G for that matter.

Part of me thinks USF would benefit more from shermans being boosted to 720 health, like the dozer and easy 8. It'd give the Jacksons more of the screen they need to function as the glass cannons they're designed to be. Easy 8 could even go to 800 to be a special snowflake even, but that might be too mean to the Pershing.

I'm not sure if long range penetration even needs to be toned down.

But this version of jackson I really don't see much reason to use Shermans. Except maybe the Bulldozer Sherman call-in. The whole rest of the USF faction can handle AI.

The problem is that in Smiths EFA mod panthers are reliable on the move and deal 200 damage, enough to kill Jackson in 3 shots.

This is what happens when stug nerfs and Jackson buffs make it into scope while panther not

After playing around in the mod for an evening, I find the fact that a jackson can survive three PAK shots and a faust to be a little much. They can survive a teller mine and a PAK shot too.

I think 520 to 560 health may be more appropriate. 560 works for the M10 nicely. And the StuG G for that matter.

Part of me thinks USF would benefit more from shermans being boosted to 720 health, like the dozer and easy 8. It'd give the Jacksons more of the screen they need to function as the glass cannons they're designed to be. Easy 8 could even go to 800 to be a special snowflake even, but that might be too mean to the Pershing.

I'm not sure if long range penetration even needs to be toned down.

But this version of jackson I really don't see much reason to use Shermans. Except maybe the Bulldozer Sherman call-in. The whole rest of the USF faction can handle AI.

Let me ask you 1 thing:

Do PIV, J4p, Su85 etc die to 3 pak shots?! So why Jacson should?

After playing around in the mod for an evening, I find the fact that a jackson can survive three PAK shots and a faust to be a little much. They can survive a teller mine and a PAK shot too.

I think 520 to 560 health may be more appropriate. 560 works for the M10 nicely. And the StuG G for that matter.

Part of me thinks USF would benefit more from shermans being boosted to 720 health, like the dozer and easy 8. It'd give the Jacksons more of the screen they need to function as the glass cannons they're designed to be. Easy 8 could even go to 800 to be a special snowflake even, but that might be too mean to the Pershing.

I'm not sure if long range penetration even needs to be toned down.

But this version of jackson I really don't see much reason to use Shermans. Except maybe the Bulldozer Sherman call-in. The whole rest of the USF faction can handle AI.

+1

I played someone last night that used a similar tactic with the exception that he added a scott to the build. He would push with smoke, i would try to hold but the scott with its accuracy would push grens/mgs off then the rifles would push At guns back then the jacksons would push any tanks away.

The scott was more of an issue than the jacksons because I was continuously retreating and healing which in turn meant I had less infantry to screen for the p4. I was able to flank with pgrens and get some hits occasionally but could never actually kill them. Had I gone Tiger then maybe I could absorb more damage and thus put more pressure back on my opponent but not every doctrine has a tiger and the jackson is stock.

I guess like everything in this game, it is not easy to fix one unit in isolation.

Ah yes the holy argument that the Jackson's far accuracy was nerfed too. The problem is that the Panther is in the most expensive tier 4 and the god of tier 3, the stug, is now nerfed beyond being able to crutch Ostheer. This means that you will still have an overpriced Panther in an overpriced Tier 4 fighting more cost efficient alternatives in more cost efficient tiers without the support of your heavily needed cost efficient tier 3 tank destoyer, which is now nerfed too.

Although the Stug 3 is still cost efficient, it means you are still forced in certain play as Ostheer (get a tier 3 stug or lose)

Ah yes the holy argument that the Jackson's far accuracy was nerfed too. The problem is that the Panther is in the most expensive tier 4 and the god of tier 3, the stug, is now nerfed beyond being able to crutch Ostheer. This means that you will still have an overpriced Panther in an overpriced Tier 4 fighting more cost efficient alternatives in more cost efficient tiers without the support of your heavily needed cost efficient tier 3 tank destoyer, which is now nerfed too.

Again, that's utter bollocks. Stug far penetration is 150. That's more than enough to penetrate USF paper armour all the time (only the sherman can now deflect 6% of the shots at max range). Thus, Stug nerfs have no effect over USF.

Again, that's utter bollocks. Stug far penetration is 150. That's more than enough to penetrate USF paper armour all the time (only the sherman can now deflect 6% of the shots at max range). Thus, Stug nerfs have no effect over USF.

Tell me how the Stug will serve you when you have to fight usf blobs and a far more effective and survivable Jackson? It won't. You need a p4 to deal with the infantry, which means you will be kited by the Jackson forever. This means you need to invest in a stug, which means you will never ever get a Panther, which means the Jackson can raom freely since Stugs are more vulnerable to handheld at too.

Tell me how the Stug will serve you when you have to fight usf blobs and a far more effective and survivable Jackson? It won't. You need a p4 to deal with the infantry, which means you will be kited by the Jackson forever. This means you need to invest in a stug, which means you will never ever get a Panther, which means the Jackson can raom freely since Stugs are more vulnerable to handheld at too.

Maybe get a sniper and hmg to figt blobs and pak to counter jackson ? Use combined arms, that´s what is ostheer all about

Tell me how the Stug will serve you when you have to fight usf blobs and a far more effective and survivable Jackson? It won't. You need a p4 to deal with the infantry, which means you will be kited by the Jackson forever. This means you need to invest in a stug, which means you will never ever get a Panther, which means the Jackson can raom freely since Stugs are more vulnerable to handheld at too.

We'll have to see about the jackson.

My apologies, however, I was just calling bullshit at:

Ah yes the holy argument that the Jackson's far accuracy was nerfed too. The problem is that the Panther is in the most expensive tier 4 and the god of tier 3, the stug, is now nerfed beyond being able to crutch Ostheer. ...

At best, the new Stug is stronger than the old one vs USF because of cheaper and better HMG, and a TWP that can be used on the move.

If your main issue vs USF was infantry all along, why not add Ostwind to your HMGs and snipers?

Did you try building Ostwinds in the mod? Have you actually played the mod?

USF Infantry gets decimated by the Ostwind in the mod...

Guys pak40 is soo great! Use it also don't forget the stun shot!.

I prefer to have 2 pak instead of a stug tbh

Imo, the biggest issue ost has vs usf is indirect fire and to a lesser degree smoke. Mortars, pack howie, scott and calliope can be devastating against ost on occasion and often dictate the outcome of multiple engagements. That of course doesn't mean indirect fire guarantees a usf win but it has a huge influence on the effectiveness of numerous other units. For example, if a mortar shell lands on an mg and take 30% health and kills a man or two, then odds are good an approaching force will simply be able to gun down the remaining units from the front and continue forward. If this happens it can create a domino effect especially if the usf player is smart enough to then focus any at guns.

Imo, the biggest issue ost has vs usf is indirect fire and to a lesser degree smoke. Mortars, pack howie, scott and calliope can be devastating against ost on occasion and often dictate the outcome of multiple engagements. That of course doesn't mean indirect fire guarantees a usf win but it has a huge influence on the effectiveness of numerous other units. For example, if a mortar shell lands on an mg and take 30% health and kills a man or two, then odds are good an approaching force will simply be able to gun down the remaining units from the front and continue forward. If this happens it can create a domino effect especially if the usf player is smart enough to then focus any at guns.

Wehrmacht mortar >>> Usa mortar.

And when he has a calliope you can have a Panzerwerfer as well or tiger late than.

Still no Ostheer Panther buffs? That thing isn't worth its cost and will never be if it gets no attention.

This post needs more attention.

The Panther needs something. The so called scope is absolute bullocks since it makes you infexible to react and to install needed changes.

I don't see how nerfing Ostheer anti tank options (StuG, Elefant) and buffing the Jackson will fix anything. Currently in 2vs2 Ostheer is already on the backfoot.

You might want to consider to actually play some 2vs2s as Ostheer and face T-34, Comet, Sherman 76mm spam. Then you will figure the only option currently is the StuG. The Panther is not viable at all.

Now you indirectly nerfed the Panther out of the game versus US players. Though one could argue that it already was nerfed out of the game already. Let's say you pissed on the dead corpse of the Ostheer Panther then. :/

Guys pak40 is soo great! Use it also don't forget the stun shot!.

I prefer to have 2 pak instead of a stug tbh

Same here. I only use stugs vs usf if my opponent goes pershing or calliope. Stugs on many 1v1 maps are just painful to micro.

Wehrmacht mortar >>> Usa mortar.

And when he has a calliope you can have a Panzerwerfer as well or tiger late than.

Ost mortar will not kill a usf mortar due to fast packup time and even if you do the ost player rarely has opportunity to steal it. I would go so far as to say the usf mortar in the hands of someone capable is impossible to kill. I have lost count of how many times I have flanked a mortar and it has just run away without losing a man.

As far as Panzerwerfer goes, well that is very situational and nowhere as effective as a Calliope unless he is a blobber or is goes for team weapons. I also will often go osttruppen vs usf on some maps so tigers aren't always an option.

The issue is a bit more complicated imo:

Before WFA Ostheer defended until they could get T3 and get a PzIV with the PzIV allowing the to start pushing. In addition the high survivability of Panther made it a viable choice even if its offensive abilities where UP.

In the current live implementation allied medium are more cost affective than PzIV, while the Allied Tds have taken away the survivability of the Panther.

The patch goes even in stranger direction where Ostheer have to use 2 different Tds for countering medium and heavy tanks while the allied TDs from Su-76 to firefly can engage both mediums and Tiger tanks.

The Panther remain unable to fulfill its role. If it is stationary it lucks sight compared to other TD and it is out ranged, if it moving it suffer from one of the lowest moving accuracies.

In addition the heavy axis Tds are being nerfed vs mediums becoming even less effective than allied TDs at range 60.

Lowering the effectiveness of TD vs medium tanks is step in the right direction but it should include the TDs of all factions not only axis.

Like, what the actual fuck?

Panther far accuracy: 0.03 (OKW Panther is 0.35)
Panther target size: 24
AI capabilities: kinda ok

Jackson far accuracy: 0.03
Jackson target size: 24
No target-shrinking capabilities
AI capabilities: inexistent

Jackson far penetration has been LOWERED too.

If the Jackson wants to fight vs Panthers at max range, while kiting, multiply the numbers I gave you by 0.421875

The chance to score a penetrating hit vs a non-blitzing panther at max range while moving is 30%. 30 fucking per-cent. Now, go play the mod before you make another post about the Jackson.



Should jackson also get the same HP, armour and accuracy as the Jagdpanzer, too?

wow calm your tits dude, if u srsly think the jackosn is fine at 135 fuel.......lol please since the jadpanzer cost more should it also get the jacksons speed, turret, damage, access to HVP shell etc no.

He gets heated because the people who make these complains never play the Balance mod, they just complain about Allies being buffed and Axi getting nerfed, you'd lose your temper too after awhile.

FYI I HAVE BEEN PLAYING THE MOD.

Now when it comes to jackons, first it needs a cost increase. OR it needs to be effective counter to heavies but venerable to mediums. e.g. since ostheer is the "gold standard" the stug nerfs is to make sure its good at countering mediums whilst you get the panther to counter heavies. The jackson however, counters all tanks at EASE. even though USF has access to bazookas and ATG's which are effective vs mediums already.

This is why i proposed a range decrease so axis medium tanks can fight more effectively vs jacksons. Any small nerfs to the precious USF and people lose ther sh*t