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russian armor

One-time heavy tanks?

3 Jul 2017, 20:03 PM
#1
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

I know that this was a circulating topic a while ago but it sort of fell off the table. I'm curious what people's opinions on this are.

Personally, I think that it'd probably be a good thing, as losing a heavy is pretty hard but often they're easy to replace once it hits that stage of the game, especially since you're less likely to lose a heavy than one medium or TD in a pack, so you end up saving a lot of fuel. This is mostly in correspondence to team games, as not many players will field even one heavy in 1v1 let alone 2.

^That's just my thoughts, now go at it :)
3 Jul 2017, 20:14 PM
#2
avatar of Chocoboknight88

Posts: 393

I see what you are trying to say but there's problems with that idea. People will get pissed that their favourite tanks got nerfed in that way and will start demanding KV1 and Churchills get the same treatment, despite not being as powerful. Many in the community have a mindset of "If I can't have it, then nobody can".

It's best left as it is without opening that can of worms even further.
3 Jul 2017, 20:19 PM
#3
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

Not a good idea, Tiger and IS-2 don't make sense right now (useless, easy to destroy), only King Tiger and Pershing are really good and Pershing is very easy to destroy, only King Tiger is really too strong
3 Jul 2017, 21:06 PM
#4
3 Jul 2017, 21:17 PM
#5
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

That'll boost the power of mediums even farther. Not something needed at all for 1v1. Teamgames is another story, but a lot of times it's a map issue or a team synergy issue.
3 Jul 2017, 23:17 PM
#6
avatar of Ramps

Posts: 99

Why not give it a cool time once it gets destroyed, let's say 2 minutes or more, that way it can't be easily replaced and you have to rely on other tech once late game reaches a stagnant point. Elaborating a little further, it's easy to comeback in team games with one guy farming fuel for another jagdtiger or another elephant, but that way you have to rely on different tactics not just calling in Elephants which can be easily replaced once it gets destroyed. Just my 2 cents.
nee
4 Jul 2017, 01:08 AM
#7
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

Having to wait another 230 fuel to call in a single vehicle again is already a hefty price. Any player that just floats that amount in case their Tiger is lost, is just giving their opponent less targets to shoot.

And even if you do lose a Tiger and immediately call in another one, you've got to retreat and consolidate to prevent further losses of units in exchange for territory, and it also comes with zero veterancy. I don't see why people call it "easy" to replace; even in my 2x income mod matches you don't just call them in one after the other. BTW they cost buttload of manpower as well.
4 Jul 2017, 03:36 AM
#8
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

That'll boost the power of mediums even farther. Not something needed at all for 1v1. Teamgames is another story, but a lot of times it's a map issue or a team synergy issue.

Won't it not really affect 1v1s though? You rarely save up enough fuel to rebuy heavies somewhat constantly like you can in teamgames.
jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jul 2017, 01:08 AMnee
Having to wait another 230 fuel to call in a single vehicle again is already a hefty price. Any player that just floats that amount in case their Tiger is lost, is just giving their opponent less targets to shoot.

And even if you do lose a Tiger and immediately call in another one, you've got to retreat and consolidate to prevent further losses of units in exchange for territory, and it also comes with zero veterancy. I don't see why people call it "easy" to replace; even in my 2x income mod matches you don't just call them in one after the other. BTW they cost buttload of manpower as well.

The thing is, in teamgames that last a really long time (like 50+ minutes) unless you play like a true soviet commander with your tanks you shouldn't lose that many when you have a heavy because keeping one heavy alive usually means you aren't "bleeding" from losing a medium here, a medium there. This applies to both axis and allies. They are much easier to replace in those situations than they are to take out.
no

Ah a well thought out and insightful counterargument. I applaud your eloquence sir.

Why even bother posting?
4 Jul 2017, 07:52 AM
#9
avatar of Jan Ziska

Posts: 71

I don't see the problem, speaking for 1v1 it doesn't matter if they can just call in another one straight away, as they are sacrificing a lot of fuel and it means they will probably have only one heavy tank, where you are likely to have a variety of mediums. What is exactly wrong with being able to call in more than one?? It's not like they're god units that are super-hard to counter.
4 Jul 2017, 09:50 AM
#10
avatar of Garrett

Posts: 309 | Subs: 1

Not a good idea, Tiger and IS-2 don't make sense right now (useless, easy to destroy), only King Tiger and Pershing are really good and Pershing is very easy to destroy, only King Tiger is really too strong


The King Tiger too strong? Really? I mean that thing is pretty good to camp VPs because of its infantry-killing capabilities, but against medium spam that thing sucks some major d*ck. I've had some games where the enemies lost because they went for KT as fast as possible, but with T34-85s and Fireflies you have everything you need to destroy the KT.

In general, I dont think its a good idea to implement that change, otherwise certain doctrines would just disappear (Pershing, IS2, certain Tiger commanders, etc.). Heavies are in no way as strong as they used to be in CoH1, so I dont necessarily see the need for that.
4 Jul 2017, 09:57 AM
#11
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 612 | Subs: 1

TBH if some of the more recent proposed changes to the call-in system make it into the game i would like to see the heavy tank limit of one removed.
nee
4 Jul 2017, 10:36 AM
#12
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216


The thing is, in teamgames that last a really long time (like 50+ minutes) unless you play like a true soviet commander with your tanks you shouldn't lose that many when you have a heavy because keeping one heavy alive usually means you aren't "bleeding" from losing a medium here, a medium there. This applies to both axis and allies. They are much easier to replace in those situations than they are to take out.


And the meta is fixed if a heavy tank limit is in place, and especially for those with commander call-ins. At least Tiger Ace is designed around the one tank ever limit.

The effects of waiting for a single heavy call-in is much different than rushing that first Panzer4, where in that time it can rule the map. Should we also limit medium tanks too and just try to make this Platoon of Heroes?
The type of unit is also a matter of consideration; KV-1 sucks balls even as the cheapest heavy tank with no limit. The obvious quip is not even heavy tanks in general, so....
4 Jul 2017, 11:20 AM
#13
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

I would rather implement a fuel/mp cost to repair anything considerate as heavy/super heavy.
4 Jul 2017, 12:39 PM
#14
avatar of karskimies

Posts: 67

Heavies suck major balls already. Dead horses turn into minced meat in your hands.
4 Jul 2017, 16:38 PM
#15
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Except for the TA, which is based on this mechanic, I don't usually support the idea of limiting player unit production. I will take a limit on number, but the idea that you can not call in a unit is in complete contrast to the rest of the game where you can have as many grens or MGs as you want.

The issue with heavies right now is the greatly different repair speeds. Try keeping a tiger in the battle with a vet 0 pio squad. Compare that to an KT when an OKW gets to upgrade their repair speed and gets to acquire vet through the process of combat (1 Pio means, 1 minesweeper so no vet).
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