The Penal Problem

This is a long post. For you delicate types, there's a TL;DR at the end. For everyone else, read on. (Edit: Oh yeah, btw I'm new to these forums. Hi!)

Penal battalions. In the current patch, they overperform heavily. The winning meta for SU players currently is to blob Penals en-masse, and it works almost every time.

I took to the COH2 Cheat Commands mod to test my hypothesis in singleplayer, versus Expert AI. For each of my tests, I tested each changed variable a total of four times, twice with me playing the Penals, twice with me playing the opposition. Tests were conducted with unupgraded troops, unless stated otherwise.

I used OKW units as a point of comparison (though I also used US riflemen). From OKW, the only infantry units that could compete with the Penals were Obersoldaten and Panzerfusiliers.

Sturmpioneers came close-ish, but overall are unable to compete (the assumption being a PvP situation against a player of equal skill). I accepted that, since Sturmpioneers are not meant to be frontline infantry and thus have a host of other abilities such as building and repairing which balance them out.

Next up was Obersoldaten. In an equal 4v4 fight, the Obersoldaten won almost every time. However, Obersoldaten require a base structure that costs 120 fuel and 200 MP where the Penals need only a cheap structure that costs 160 MP and 10 fuel. Additionally, the Obers themselves cost 400 MP, to the Penals' 300 MP. Thus, you can get 4 Penal squads for the cost of 3 Ober squads, and in that situation the Penals won every time. I conducted the same test twice more, the first time giving the three Ober squads infrared STG-44s (total: 180 muni), the second time giving them MG-34s. In both scenarios, the four Penal squads beat the three Ober squads. Also, bear in mind that SU Penal squads have a satchel ability for 45 muni, and the OKW Ober squads have a bundled grenade ability also for 45 muni. In most situations, satchel > bundled, especially against vehicles.

Come on, it can't be that bad. What about Panzerfusiliers (290 MP, requires Brekathrough Doctrine)? Well, at long range, unsurprisingly the Penals lost quite heavily. However, in tests where the Penals were allowed to close the distance, the Penals quickly gave back the damage they'd taken and melted the Pzf squads. Furthermore, Pfz have only a weak normal grenade ability which costs 30 muni to the satchel's 45, where the satchel is demonstrably superior even with its timer. And more to the point, Pfz are doctrinal (requiring the Breakthrough doctrine) and require 3 CP, where Penals are non-doctrinal and available from the start.

Perhaps I am taking the wrong approach. What about vehicles? Well, two Penal squads each with one PTRS-41 rifle were able to defeat a Pzkpfw II Luchs (260 MP, 60 fuel) every time. The Puma (320 MP, 70 fuel) does not contend. The Pzkpfw IV (360 MP, 150 fuel) lost every time to a mere three Penal squads. The Panther likewise lost every time to the same opponent, on some occasions even losing to a mere two squads. Upgrading the Panther (490 MP, 200 fuel) with a pintle-MG42 enabled it to almost defeat three Penal squads... but not quite, not even once. And that's ignoring the 45-muni satchel which takes a load of health off any vehicle and disables the engine (afterall, a good player won't let you near enough to use the satchel on a vehicle). That leaves the Konigstiger (720 MP, 280 fuel) which was, with the pintle-MG42 upgrade barely able to hold off 5 Penal squads when it was lucky, and didn't die. That's ignoring that the Konigstiger is probably slow enough that a Penal squad can run up to it and slap a satchel on it, which takes about 1/6 of the Konigstiger's health away. Ignoring Command Panther (similar/same results as regular Panther), that only leaves the Flammpanzer Hetzer (280 MP, 100 fuel) which was barely able to hold off two Penal squads. I am ignoring the Jagdtiger and the Jagdpanzer, since they are TDs and thus are obviously not a counter to Penals. Exhausting all other vehicles, that leaves the Sturmtiger (560 MP, 160 fuel, requires Elite Armoured doctrine). Against noobs, or in a surprise role, it can wipe a few Penal squads. However a good player can outmanoeuvre the Sturmtiger with his Penals.

Realistically though, you're not going to give your Penals PTRS-41 rifles. You're going to use your own armour and AT guns to deal with armour. Penals are most potent in the early game, where they're easily accessible and no real counter to them is available.

I even pitted 4 Penal squads against 4 US Riflemen (280 MP). Penals obviously won every time. I gave the US riflemen a BAR each (+240 muni), and the Penals still won.

The most obvious counter, MGs... Firstly there's mortars to contend with, and ROK CEs in an M3. Failing that, you only need one Penal squad to flank, and suddenly you've lost your MG (and any nearby squads) to a 45-muni satchel. The satchel has a 4 second fuse, and it takes 3.5 seconds to pack up an MG-42 or MG-34. Eek. Not to mention that the MG-34 is a pile of fertiliser and leaves the OKW without a real MG. Basically, there are plenty of cost-effective counters to the MG, as it should be, (arguably the only real counter to the Penals), and once the MG is down it's Penal funtimes. We could go back and forth with the counter to the counter, and the counter-counter-counter, but the problem is that the enemy can devote most of his force to Penal spamming, but you are at a huge disadvantage if you only field MGs.

TL;DR the SU Penal infantry seem to overperform for their cost. Their only counters are much more expensive and less available, and often locked behind a Commander. They are highly effective versus infantry, and their satchels lend them potency versus buildings and structures also, even against vehicles in a nasty situation. Your only hope as an Axis player of wiping them is relying on rocket artillery such as Panzerwerthers and Stuka zu Fuß, especially given the impotence of the LeIG and LeFH versus infantry. It is apparent that the majority of SU players share my viewpoint, as most SU players I have seen lately have relied heavily on spamming Penals.

Thank the Jeebus for the invention of tl;dr.

That said, I like to primarily play OKW (but not exclusively). As OKW I can really struggle with Penal early, their sheer power and that dirty satchel make them hard to deal with until I can get an MG out (but that is easier said than done).

I don't find it to be such a big deal as Ost though, the MG34 you can get right out of the gate is good for dealing with them if used correctly.

Your experiments with OKW are a good read but late game I find that Penals seem to be some what easier to deal with when your Volk are vet heavy with StG. If however you have lost the vet Volk than yeah you are boned and need to rely on Falls or Ober which as you state has far too many draw backs.

I feel that the issue is Penals are just too powerful out of the gate and late game lack the ability to compete with vet and upgrade Volk/Gren. IMHO early meat and late game cheap reinforce units is the position that Cons should have not Penals. Penals should be like Volk, rubbish to start with but with proper care and ugrade very potent mid to late game.

I feel really bad for the balance team because it's super hard to get the balance between Con and Penal perfect, I hope they eventually figure it out though.

the problem with penals are:

OP early game, they beat grens and volks at all ranges even if you get the upper hand in any engagement.

Late game, not as OP they begin to lose to vetted and upgraded axis infantry.

I personally hope the early game effectiveness gets nerfed along with some lategame buffs for this unit

Next up was Obersoldaten. In an equal 4v4 fight, the Obersoldaten won almost every time. However, Obersoldaten require a vulnerable base structure that costs 120 fuel and 200 MP where the Penals need only a cheap structure that costs 160 MP and 10 fuel.

Putting up your tier stucture up close to frontline is not a problem of Obers nor Penals. SU player puts it in his base sector.

Let's me put it this way - isn't SU T1 is more vulnerable than OKW T4?

Additionally, the Obers themselves cost 400 MP, to the Penals' 300 MP. Thus, you can get 4 Penal squads for the cost of 3 Ober squads, and in that situation the Penals won every time.

Penal start is very slow. You should use that to your advantage and take superior map presence and field luchs fast.

Just think about it this way - how many combat squads OKW will have by the time when, say, second Penal comes out, given that SU player went T1->Penal->Penal? Something like CE + Penal + Penal against SP + Volk/Kubel + Volk + Volk.

Which side will have map advantage? Who will field light tank faster in that situation? What can Soviet T1 start to do against light tank, except trading AI for AT by upg. PTRS?

The most obvious counter, MGs... Well, you only need one Penal squad to flank, and suddenly you've lost your MG (and any nearby squads) to a 45-muni satchel. The satchel has a 4 second fuse, and it takes 3.5 seconds to pack up an MG-42 or MG-34. Eek. Not to mention that the MG-34 is a pile of fertiliser and leaves the OKW without a real MG.

Again, you let your MG to flank, which probably means that you've left your 260 (or 210) unit alone (provided no scouting/screening) against, as you say in your scenario - 600 MP army.

IMO the examples you provide either out of real combat situation as well as your "Penal Problem" is not a balance, but a skill issue. Your personal skill issue.

Obers being not good (mostly timing problem) are not Penal issue. Crap MG-34 neither.

Come on, dude. Failed to dodge satchel with your MG then came to forums? How about to pack up and run 2 secs earlier if you found yourself in such situation?

Can destroy everything. That is the problem.

Sounds like they need more of their power tied behind vet, so they don't murder everything early on. They could probably do with better survivability in the late game though.

Wow, the vacuum theorycrafting in this thread is out of this world

Wow, the vacuum theorycrafting in this thread is out of this world

+1

TO TOPIC


You must count losing 20 seconds of engineer (who is building tier 1) and 20 seconds of production time (you cannot train units until you get tier 1 set up [unless you want to add shitty cons into your army rooster]) in the beggining of match, on top of -160 mp (tier1 cost). Both Axis factions can start training units from minute 0 of the match (OKW - volks, sturms, kubel; OST- HMG)

This will make Soviet penal start really slow.

A good OKW player can capitalise on this, head straight for the most important positions like opponents fuel, cut off, garrisons and green cover on enemys part of the map, while Soviet player is just building tier 1. Kubel can cap your part of the mean while OKW main forces are seizinh great positions on his part of the map.


Ostheer can build HMG, that will counter penals much better than it counter cons, because penals lack hoorah and are in lesser numbers (they cost 300 mp after all). Also They can get sniper, which will bleed penals just right. And once grens get lmg upgrade, they can go toe-to-toe against penals.

M3 shouldn´t be problem for ostheer, because your 222 should come just a minute afterwards, making the clown car obsolete.

Grenadiers with g43s show them the door pretty quick. The only problem is surviving until you get the 43s up.

In my opinion, a penal build is manageable when you have to face it. The problem comes when a penal build gets supported by one or two DHKS and you can´t push out but also can´t hold out against the penal hordes. Then he starts calling in fuel via the airdrops and the M4Cs start rolling out.

Also, as someone else mentioned. Penal builds start very slow due to building t1 and the long build time of the first penal squad. A rushed sturmpioneer supported by two kubels will keep any early penal build at bay whilst a lonely volksgrenadier squad starts capping the rear.

Penal are problematic for their time frame since they spawn stronger than any other infantry of that time frame.

Their SVT are also problematic since they have very good DPS at all ranges allowing Penal to have a positioning advantage.

PTRS also has too much deflection damage.

Annoying. I spent the time to type up a reply to all of you (I even went into the game to test once more how your proposed counters performed), and when I hit send I had been automatically logged out and it seems this website does not support any kind of drafting system (I did not have the foresight to copy my response to clipboard). Thus, at the bottom, you'll find my demoralised 1 minute of throwing together a response.

Grenadiers with g43s show them the door pretty quick. The only problem is surviving until you get the 43s up.

In my opinion, a penal build is manageable when you have to face it. The problem comes when a penal build gets supported by one or two DHKS and you can´t push out but also can´t hold out against the penal hordes. Then he starts calling in fuel via the airdrops and the M4Cs start rolling out.

Also, as someone else mentioned. Penal builds start very slow due to building t1 and the long build time of the first penal squad. A rushed sturmpioneer supported by two kubels will keep any early penal build at bay whilst a lonely volksgrenadier squad starts capping the rear.

+1

TO TOPIC


You must count losing 20 seconds of engineer (who is building tier 1) and 20 seconds of production time (you cannot train units until you get tier 1 set up [unless you want to add shitty cons into your army rooster]) in the beggining of match, on top of -160 mp (tier1 cost). Both Axis factions can start training units from minute 0 of the match (OKW - volks, sturms, kubel; OST- HMG)

This will make Soviet penal start really slow.

A good OKW player can capitalise on this, head straight for the most important positions like opponents fuel, cut off, garrisons and green cover on enemys part of the map, while Soviet player is just building tier 1. Kubel can cap your part of the mean while OKW main forces are seizinh great positions on his part of the map.


Ostheer can build HMG, that will counter penals much better than it counter cons, because penals lack hoorah and are in lesser numbers (they cost 300 mp after all). Also They can get sniper, which will bleed penals just right. And once grens get lmg upgrade, they can go toe-to-toe against penals.

M3 shouldn´t be problem for ostheer, because your 222 should come just a minute afterwards, making the clown car obsolete.

Putting up your tier stucture up close to frontline is not a problem of Obers nor Penals. SU player puts it in his base sector.

Let's me put it this way - isn't SU T1 is more vulnerable than OKW T4?



Penal start is very slow. You should use that to your advantage and take superior map presence and field luchs fast.

Just think about it this way - how many combat squads OKW will have by the time when, say, second Penal comes out, given that SU player went T1->Penal->Penal? Something like CE + Penal + Penal against SP + Volk/Kubel + Volk + Volk.

Which side will have map advantage? Who will field light tank faster in that situation? What can Soviet T1 start to do against light tank, except trading AI for AT by upg. PTRS?



Again, you let your MG to flank, which probably means that you've left your 260 (or 210) unit alone (provided no scouting/screening) against, as you say in your scenario - 600 MP army.

IMO the examples you provide either out of real combat situation as well as your "Penal Problem" is not a balance, but a skill issue. Your personal skill issue.

Obers being not good (mostly timing problem) are not Penal issue. Crap MG-34 neither.

Come on, dude. Failed to dodge satchel with your MG then came to forums? How about to pack up and run 2 secs earlier if you found yourself in such situation?

My response to all: It takes 15 seconds to capture a point. 20 seconds to build your Rifle Command building. Doesn't seem to significant to me.

Let's not get into the counter to the counter to the counter, because that's a rabbit hole I don't think we need to go down. The point is, the main counter to the Penals is an MG. An OKW player cannot rely on his MGs (MG34 anyone?). An OST player cannot viably have a force composed mostly or entirely of MGs, whereas an SU player can field a viable force of mostly or entirely Penals. There is always a counter to the MGs, and once they are gone, it's Penal funtimes and the game is lost.

My point about the OKW T4 halftrack was not that it was vulnerable, that was poor wording, but that is costs 200 MP and 120 fuel whereas the SU Rifle Command costs 160 MP and 10 fuel. Big difference.

Additionally, a few of the counters suggested were doctrinal. Imo, absolutely every unit in the game should have a viable non-doctrinal counter.

And to the guy who said 'Come on, dude. Failed to dodge satchel with your MG then came to forums?'; that was a hypothetical situation. I predominately play OKW, though I've played quite a lot of Allies (especially Brits) also. Because I main OKW, I obviously have never lost an MG to a satchel, because I'm not stupid enough to waste resources on the MG34 in its current state. Your attempt to belittle the point at hand shows your lack of committal to any serious discussion.

As some in this thread have conceded, the problem with Penals is that they are too potent early game and punch above their weight class. They are also way too cost-effective.

This is in stark contrast to many OKW units, such as the Obersoldaten, which initially punch below their weight class and require high vet and upgrades before they become truly potent.

have you tried going for a fast luchs? That is pretty much the way you counter everything as OKW.

have you tried going for a fast luchs? That is pretty much the way you counter everything as OKW.

The problem with Luch is that it delivers very inconsistent damage. It ability to fight infantry in heavy cover is extremely low (very low modifier especially in contrast with Centaur that has very high modifier) unless one risk to move it to range 10 and be in range of AT throw weapons.

have you tried going for a fast luchs? That is pretty much the way you counter everything as OKW.

Eh, two Penal squads or Guard Rifles with PTRS rifles can easily defeat a Luchs (and that's assuming they are just stood in the open and not even behind cover). Or just a single SU-76, or a well-micro'd T-70. Or even a single Zis gun.

I will however concede that a Luchs is much more accessible than a SU-76 as you can see - unit MP, unit fuel (+structure MP +structure fuel)

SU-76M - 280 MP, 75 fuel (+400 MP +95 fuel)

Pzkpfw II Luchs - 265 MP, 60 fuel (+200 MP +50 fuel)

...damnit. I stated above I didn't want to get into the counter-to-the-counter, 'cos there are plenty of ways to kill a Luchs, using even a mere two PTRS-41 rifles against an 'anti-infantry' tank, or just mines/demos. And anyway, the Luchs is too impotent to be considered a true counter.

...damnit. I stated above I didn't want to get into the counter-to-the-counter, 'cos there are plenty of ways to kill a Luchs, using even a mere two PTRS-41 rifles against an 'anti-infantry' tank, or just mines/demos. And anyway, the Luchs is too impotent to be considered a true counter.

If you dont want to talk about what the Penals face then you have no basis from which to call them OP or UP. If Penals faced LMG Obers from 2 minutes into the game, you would call the Penals UP.

The luchs argument is particularly powerful as its the hard counter to all non-AT infantry, and can come very quickly.

Annoying. I spent the time to type up a reply to all of you (I even went into the game to test once more how your proposed counters performed), and when I hit send I had been automatically logged out and it seems this website does not support any kind of drafting system (I did not have the foresight to copy my response to clipboard). Thus, at the bottom, you'll find my demoralised 1 minute of throwing together a response.







My response to all: It takes 15 seconds to capture a point. 20 seconds to build your Rifle Command building. Doesn't seem to significant to me.

20 seconds means the difference between controling and losing the key house

If you dont want to talk about what the Penals face then you have no basis from which to call them OP or UP.

Penals are the officialy designated counter to luchs and Ostwind/PIV. Not the other way around.

If you dont want to talk about what the Penals face then you have no basis from which to call them OP or UP. If Penals faced LMG Obers from 2 minutes into the game, you would call the Penals UP.

The luchs argument is particularly powerful as its the hard counter to all non-AT infantry, and can come very quickly.

Of course the Penals would seem UP if they faced LMG Obers from 2 mins in. The LMG Obers are ridiculously more expensive, and are late-game infantry for when popcap matters more than cost-effectiveness.

Even if you could get Obers from the start, though, the Penals still win in cost-effectiveness and would still win overall (as I stated, Penal squads wipes the floor with 3 Ober squads).

And I am happy to discuss what the Penals face, and potential counters to the Penals. That is where the Luchs comes in, indeed, and the Luchs fails miserably. The reason I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of the counter to the counter (the counter to the Luchs for example) is that we'll get derailed and end up discussing, for example, how two T34/76s (80 fuel each) are simultaneously cheaper and superior to an OST/OKW Panther (175 fuel, or 200 fuel for OKW) and are not only able to easily flank and destroy a Panther even while reversing, but are also potent versus infantry.

That's not to say that there is not a counter to the counter, there almost always is one, it's that it's not relevant.

I agree with MarioSilver here.

EDIT: My point is, it's important to acknowledge that there is a counter to every and any proposed counter (sometimes the Penals themselves are a viable counter to the proposed counter), I just don't feel it necessary to go into great length about the details of the counter to the counter, and then the counter to that counter, and so on.