Forward retreat points.

Can somebody explain to me how did we come to the misconception that having access to FRP magically makes your blobs more punishable to artillery than not having access to FRPs?

If anything, FRPs give you access to an additional retreat point you can use (the other being your base).

If your base gets barraged you have nowhere to go. If your FRP gets barraged, np: just deactivate FRP and hit mass retreat to your base.

The 'f' in frp. There's been plenty of effort to eliminate the ability for players to blast people's hqs with indirect fire. Be it building mortar pits in base hqs to loiters and off map arti unable to target hq sectors.

When an frp exists, that retreat point is often in range of indirect fire and in sectors where off maps can directly target the frp.

Things like land mattresses, katyushas, and calliopes that throw multiple volleys are excellent for clearing fros. Stuka zu fuss and panzerwerfers are as well, but the single volley requires much better timing. A katyusha firing on a medic truck can usually wipe retreating units even if they immediately retreat to the hq due to the saturation effect.

Not sure why this concept is a sudden mystery.

The 'f' in frp. There's been plenty of effort to eliminate the ability for players to blast people's hqs with indirect fire. Be it building mortar pits in base hqs to loiters and off map arti unable to target hq sectors.

When an frp exists, that retreat point is often in range of indirect fire and in sectors where off maps can directly target the frp.

Things like land mattresses, katyushas, and calliopes that throw multiple volleys are excellent for clearing fros. Stuka zu fuss and panzerwerfers are as well, but the single volley requires much better timing. A katyusha firing on a medic truck can usually wipe retreating units even if they immediately retreat to the hq due to the saturation effect.

Not sure why this concept is a sudden mystery.

Or you could just turn off your frp and have your units saunter on past. They usually take a different route too. And okw medhq is unique in that it comes wayyyy before any rocket arty as well.

The 'f' in frp. There's been plenty of effort to eliminate the ability for players to blast people's hqs with indirect fire. Be it building mortar pits in base hqs to loiters and off map arti unable to target hq sectors.

When an frp exists, that retreat point is often in range of indirect fire and in sectors where off maps can directly target the frp.

Things like land mattresses, katyushas, and calliopes that throw multiple volleys are excellent for clearing fros. Stuka zu fuss and panzerwerfers are as well, but the single volley requires much better timing. A katyusha firing on a medic truck can usually wipe retreating units even if they immediately retreat to the hq due to the saturation effect.

Not sure why this concept is a sudden mystery.

and who's fault is that it is so Forward?

it's the user. '15-20 second off of every retreat? nah that is too little - let me just push it a bit further...' to where many many med bases are set up where you shave ~60 sec off of every retreat...

if mortar emplacement has range on your med base, if katyusha, stuka has range o your FRP without moving up to or very close to the front line (in even match), it is probably the user's fault.

if mortar emplacement has range on your med base, if katyusha, stuka has range o your FRP without moving up to or very close to the front line (in even match), it is probably the user's fault.

Exactly. You don't put a FHQ on Semoisky but then you can have open big maps with pocket sectors on which you can hide FHQ behind hedges or buildings on which any non Howitzer type of artillery would had to commit into the front, in order to be able to barrage them.

And USF? You need to buy 2 ambulances. People will not stop to hit the retreat button to send their squad to heal at their base.
So you need to put the doctrinal half-track stock unit.

And as HighFive mentioned it. How do you compensate the lose for the faction. USF is a faction lacking of stock mine, that must chose between AI stuff and AT stuff mid game, doesn't have stock arty except the squishy and low range major that cannot call arty in the fog of war and doesn't have stock heavy tank.
1vs1 match aren't the problem as we know because maps are small enough to compensate but what about team game and big maps? Will it still be Option A, get AI stuff or Option B, get AT Stuff and then select between option C for Arty and option D for Heavies but know that you'll never have both at the same time?

Definitively removing FRP, and I'll be happen if we could, is not a single easy task as you suppose to.

Why would you need second ambulance? There are plenty option to do.
For example AA HT can be a simple HT with AA upgrade for, or you can take model of Mortar HT and add to T0 etc etc etc.

What lose for a faction? What USF mines or arty have to do with FRP?

and who's fault is that it is so Forward?

it's the user. '15-20 second off of every retreat? nah that is too little - let me just push it a bit further...' to where many many med bases are set up where you shave ~60 sec off of every retreat...

if mortar emplacement has range on your med base, if katyusha, stuka has range o your FRP without moving up to or very close to the front line (in even match), it is probably the user's fault.

Well, yes. I don't disagree with that at all. I was responding to Mr smiths question about how FRPs make blobs more vulnerable to artillery.

Being forward means it'smore vulnerable to artillery. That's all I was getting at.

Very true, I would like to however suggest we don't remove a mechanic that adds fun to the game and makes the OKW feel unique.

I made a suggestion in another thread that I will copy paste here. If we aren't going to fix blobbing I would suggest something like:

I would also keep the FRP for OKW, but i would delay the it to match a realistic window corresponding to when a USA major can enter the field.

No FRP for OST or Soviets. They have others means.

Only OKW's one is problematic.

What lose for a faction? What USF mines or arty have to do with FRP?

Not my opinion but what i think he meant is, WFA + UKF don't get access to this features or it's harder/expensive/behind commanders in favour of having this kind of things.

Things like land mattresses, katyushas, and calliopes that throw multiple volleys are excellent for clearing fros. Stuka zu fuss and panzerwerfers are as well, but the single volley requires much better timing. A katyusha firing on a medic truck can usually wipe retreating units even if they immediately retreat to the hq due to the saturation effect.

Not sure why this concept is a sudden mystery.

Katy is a tier 4 unit. FRP is a tier 1 upgrade. Not sure why this concept being a problem is a mystery to you.

Only mystery here is why the FRPs are only on 3/5 factions. I understand the holy grail of assymetrical balance, but the retreat mechanic is far too important to CoH to have forward ones be dolled out only to some factions. If limited to WFA it should be doctrinal, not stock.

Katy is a tier 4 unit. FRP is a tier 1 upgrade. Not sure why this concept being a problem is a mystery to you.

Wat?

I was responding to Mr smiths question about how FRPs make blobs more vulnerable to artillery.

...and nothing more. Not sure where you're coming from on that.

Only mystery here is why the FRPs are only on 3/5 factions. I understand the holy grail of assymetrical balance, but the retreat mechanic is far too important to CoH to have forward ones be dolled out only to some factions. If limited to WFA it should be doctrinal, not stock.

Precisely. EFA having reinforce halftracks does not suffice.

Why would you need second ambulance? There are plenty option to do.
For example AA HT can be a simple HT with AA upgrade for, or you can take model of Mortar HT and add to T0 etc etc etc.

What lose for a faction? What USF mines or arty have to do with FRP?

Isn't what I said? To reinforce on the battlefield you need a vehicule. But you also need healing at your base thus need an ambulance there. On the current game, this means 2 ambulances.

Not sure if you are trolling or what. If I say -Flamthrowers are unbalanced because USF doesn't have them so let's remove them from the game. Wouldn't you come and say, -Ok, but how do you balance the gap? FT have a purpose, how do you fill the gap.
Guess what it's the same for USF FRP, it is there to fill a gap. Artificial gap, purely made fron design decision makers, but still FRP has been balance around all the inexistant features accessible for OKW and USF.
And for USF, they are numerous.
No stock arty
No stock heavies
No stock mine
No stock elite troops
Design gimmick select T1 for AI stuff, select T2 for AT stuff

All those missing tools are the tools Ostheer and Soviet get to hold their line, to stand their ground to stay the maximum of time on the battelfield before hitting retreat button.

Not my opinion but what i think he meant is, WFA + UKF don't get access to this features or it's harder/expensive/behind commanders in favour of having this kind of things.

Somewhat yes. This is also why I'm really interested on how the modding team will balance USF vs Ostheer/OKW.
USF is not only a faction that have weaknesses, some units/tools artificially underpowered. No they are just inexistant.
Balancing Riflemen squad with Gren/Volks is an easy task. But how do you balance the rest around if it is simply not in the game or behind a commander.

I would make all FRP doctrinal. FHQ's can be used for reinforcement, heal and optionally to build new units, but the FRP ability should be only available when a certain doctrine is picked. It could be used to revamp some currently useless commander.

i would love to have OKW only being able to upgrade FRP after set up all tier structure, this would bring in-line with USF major tech in timing

i would love to have OKW only being able to upgrade FRP after set up all tier structure, this would bring in-line with USF major tech in timing

OKW teching is not linear. Forcing them to back-tech for FRP is not a good idea imo.

OKW teching is not linear. Forcing them to back-tech for FRP is not a good idea imo.

Nah i think forcing them to backtech for FRP is fine, it will prevent OKW from getting FRP early and still have a late game FRP option

It's my personal opinion that they should be totally removed for all factions that have them.

I think on both sides they encourage blobbing, and it really shows when a rifle/volk/tommy(?) blob retreats and then comes back literally like 15-20 seconds later, especially when playing as EFA or lacking a retreat point of one's own. I just feel that this is one of the things that encourages blobbing and should probably just get removed.

Agreed!

I would also keep the FRP for OKW, but i would delay the it to match a realistic window corresponding to when a USA major can enter the field.

No FRP for OST or Soviets. They have others means.

Only OKW's one is problematic.

Interesting idea about delaying OKW's - but: OKW's is a tier structure and so can't be placed as far forward as the Major. He can pack up and move or retreat to avoid being artied to death but the truck can't.

I guess that's why OKW get theirs earlier. It's a trade-off for both. Amis have to wait but get more flexible FRP.



Also, you don't think Brit FRP is a problem?

I say remove 'em all!!!!!!!! Punish the blobbers and inf spammers.

Interesting idea about delaying OKW's - but: OKW's is a tier structure and so can't be placed as far forward as the Major. He can pack up and move or retreat to avoid being artied to death but the truck can't.

I guess that's why OKW get theirs earlier. It's a trade-off for both. Amis have to wait but get more flexible FRP.



Also, you don't think Brit FRP is a problem?

I say remove 'em all!!!!!!!! Punish the blobbers and inf spammers.

+1

Interesting idea about delaying OKW's - but: OKW's is a tier structure and so can't be placed as far forward as the Major. He can pack up and move or retreat to avoid being artied to death but the truck can't.

I guess that's why OKW get theirs earlier. It's a trade-off for both. Amis have to wait but get more flexible FRP.



Also, you don't think Brit FRP is a problem?

I say remove 'em all!!!!!!!! Punish the blobbers and inf spammers.

For the Brits, i would lock their retreat point ability (not the building itself) til they have bought either hammer or anvil tech. And it would also be a great time to also unlock the OKW's retreat point ability (not the truck itself). Unlock after 3 or 4 trucks are setup ?

The middle game is a better place for FRP. (to my view)

Forward retreat points early purchase and or placement are risk/reward mechanics. Which should always be encouraged in RTS games, RNG should be diminished where possible in favour of skill based decisions.

So if the FRP needs a balance that's fine, there has been plenty of good ideas floated here.