Forward retreat points.

As it's been mentioned, I'd be curious to see if FRP were removed and only soft-retreat reinforcing were available (vCoH style playing ergo Forward HQ). Still keep the game the same way, with the USF ambu, OKW truck, Sov/Ost HT...just remove the ability for the "get out of jail" retreat card to be so close to the front.

If you do a hard retreat, that's part of the penalty for retreating, you go allll the way back to your base. Again, I think the early FRP of OKW makes them so powerful early game. They already have the strongest early game units (SP & Kubel combo), no sense it getting those back in action so quickly after a hard retreat. Give the other side a reward and time to breathe for forcing OKW back.


USF can only do FRP at T3 (Major). That's LATE game. OKW can FRP at T1. Slight difference. USF has ambulance at T1, but that's only for soft retreat, and it's weak as hell. When USF retreats it's blob, it goes back to base. OKW retreat it's blob, and it only goes back 1 sector (or whereever the truck is planted).

USF comes late, that's true, but it comes for free (if you decide to tech up) and is easily the best one, since you can just move the FRP once it's spotted - something that few players actually do, thus getting barraged to death pretty often. Brits and OKW don't have this luxury, their risk is greater.

USF can only do FRP at T3 (Major). That's LATE game. OKW can FRP at T1. Slight difference. USF has ambulance at T1, but that's only for soft retreat, and it's weak as hell. When USF retreats it's blob, it goes back to base. OKW retreat it's blob, and it only goes back 1 sector (or whereever the truck is planted).

I agree the OKW abuse it more, I'm just saying in an overall conversation with all 5 factions, those 2 stand alone in terms of how much it effects there meta.

I'd rather they remove it from WFA entirely than add it for EFA.

Just deal with blobbing, we all know blobbing is the main issue here.

Reworking entire teams to treat the symptoms of the real issue is just silly.

The usefulness of the forward retreat points is entirely dependent on game mode and map, flat out saying the are "O.P" and "broken" with out adequate context is not helpful.

That's a good point about maps there. FRT is incredible on the large maps.It really gives those armies a big advantage. So perhaps a mechanic where it's only possible in certain territories, such as only the territories adjacent to your base. Or a certain radius away from your HQ.

That's a good point about maps there. FRT is incredible on the large maps.

Very true, I would like to however suggest we don't remove a mechanic that adds fun to the game and makes the OKW feel unique.

I made a suggestion in another thread that I will copy paste here. If we aren't going to fix blobbing I would suggest something like:

I do agree, there is a disadvantage in not having a forward retreat point. I would like however to not see this mechanic removed as it ads an element of fun to the game.

I would propose perhaps reworking the Forward HQ ability with Sov and introducing one for Ost. At the moment the FHQ is utterly broken, being able to deploy it anywhere instantly is just horses arse balance.
I guess something like:
- Remove instant set up.
- Require zone control to set up and reinforce.
- Remove free medics.
- Add a forward retreat upgrade for 300MP.
- Add medic upgrade for 100MP.
- Limit to one at a time and keep commander specific.

(Or something similar perhaps?). That way you have an option to use if required.

This is why I'm, not talking about UKF. Mobile reinforcement truck is a solution yes but you need to implement 2 new stock units, one for the USF and one for the OKW.

You don't.

You can make Searchlight to act like a reinforce.
Same way Bren Carrier can work after some new upgrade.

I totaly agree with removing FRP
I play almost only vanilla faction and I feel very disadvantaged on some map

But unfortunately I doubt relic will allow this kind of change
I just hope they will consider this for CoH3 ...

If you want to remove FRP from the three factions, you have to think about something to compensate.
It is not as worth for OKW or Brits, where you can simply remove the ability from the building, but for USF you get a major that currently has no role but to act as a FRP.

Sure, it has that overwatch ability IMO nobody has ever used in any way, just like the Offizier from vCoH. Giving the Major an aura would also not solve the problem but encourage blobbing even further.

I would be pleased to have a Major Winters skin nonetheless.

You don't.

You can make Searchlight to act like a reinforce.
Same way Bren Carrier can work after some new upgrade.

And USF? You need to buy 2 ambulances. People will not stop to hit the retreat button to send their squad to heal at their base.
So you need to put the doctrinal half-track stock unit.

And as HighFive mentioned it. How do you compensate the lose for the faction. USF is a faction lacking of stock mine, that must chose between AI stuff and AT stuff mid game, doesn't have stock arty except the squishy and low range major that cannot call arty in the fog of war and doesn't have stock heavy tank.
1vs1 match aren't the problem as we know because maps are small enough to compensate but what about team game and big maps? Will it still be Option A, get AI stuff or Option B, get AT Stuff and then select between option C for Arty and option D for Heavies but know that you'll never have both at the same time?

Definitively removing FRP, and I'll be happen if we could, is not a single easy task as you suppose to.

I highly doubt relic will agree to any features being removed entirely from the game. This thread reminds me of the whole 'let's get rid of emplacements' thing. It's probably better to have a work around for the people somehow suffering at the hands of 'OP' units and mechanics, then just to axe the concept entirely. as people have said, this can have a knock on effect.

I highly doubt relic will agree to any features being removed entirely from the game.

I am also rather pessimistic when it comes to these kinds of changes, but keep in mind that Relic (mostly) abandoned the Blizzard feature, which was by far the most hyped before the game came out.

The same thing goes for the OKW munitions/fuel boost mechanic.

I am also rather pessimistic when it comes to these kinds of changes, but keep in mind that Relic (mostly) abandoned the Blizzard feature, which was by far the most hyped before the game came out.

The same thing goes for the OKW munitions/fuel boost mechanic.

I still love blizzard, sometimes I create a private game and play with a blizzard. The blizzard had to be redesigned and not completely removed

I thought the same thing for a long time, but then someone pointed out that even if it is cheesy, it makes sense for a blob to take out a single unsupported mg. Think about it: 4+ squads (so over 1000 manpower) probably with at least 60 muni worth of upgrades on each, vs. one 260-280 manpower mg on its own. It just doesn't make sense. It's like saying "7 a-moving su85s can kill one elefant this is a problem because elefant is supposed to counter su85, elefant UP" BTW, when squads don't all get suppressed at the same time hey usually bunch up really hard once they do, so grenades and barrages totally wreck them if they don't retreat immediately (said hitch they usually do).

I still think that nerfing RA will not fix anything for anyone, but just make tanks in lategame super op and make random infantry wipes as normal as model drops. There are other ways to stress cover in the lategame (like some of my proposals in the post you quoted).

Yeah let's just stop talking about emplacements on this thread, no reason for it.

¨

How do you buff cover any more? Infantry in heavy cover are already almost invincible. At least remove the vet modifiers for received accuracy though. Vet3 Riflemen are problem even in 1v1, never mind blobbing. Replace them with either more accuracy, or some abilities(sprint, stun grenade, smoke grenade, self-healing, suppressing fire and so on), so it is actually skill based, rather than "I will just stand in the open because I can" type of mentality.

I am also rather pessimistic when it comes to these kinds of changes, but keep in mind that Relic (mostly) abandoned the Blizzard feature, which was by far the most hyped before the game came out.

The same thing goes for the OKW munitions/fuel boost mechanic.

That's true, it is still technically speaking in the game (I take your point that it's not in auto match)

FRPs go against several game mechanics that make CoH unique:
- invalidates suppression tools
- makes it easy to avoid flanking
- reduces punishment from retreating in general

Some have said that it is high risk / high reward tool because of arty, but in fact they are not as real arty comes too late to the party. Usually you are not able to keep mortar close to enemy FRP long enough, because of... FRP.

If you want to remove FRP from the three factions, you have to think about something to compensate.
[...]

If you have imbalance, then you just remove OP features. You don't compensate with anything. Otherwise you'll just keep things imbalanced, but in some other way.

It may seem like everything is allright now and that there MAY be imbalance after removing FRP, but in my opinion this looks so just because we have #adapted to FRP disparity.

I don't know how about you, but I personally feel godlike when I play USF and roll and roll again and again with Rifleman no matter what. It is completely different with Soviets or Wehrmacht.

Playing EFA you have to pick your fights, carefully plan your attacks, extensively use scouting tools (which are, maybe, the only thing that may be buffed for WFA if you want something back to compensate).

Btw, talking from 4v4 perspecive, where FRP have the most effect.

Can somebody explain to me how did we come to the misconception that having access to FRP magically makes your blobs more punishable to artillery than not having access to FRPs?

If anything, FRPs give you access to an additional retreat point you can use (the other being your base).

If your base gets barraged you have nowhere to go. If your FRP gets barraged, np: just deactivate FRP and hit mass retreat to your base.

Can somebody explain to me how did we come to the misconception that having access to FRP magically makes your blobs more punishable to artillery than not having access to FRPs?

A smart player can time a good barrage as you are retreating. It's true you can change your retreat point so I don't think this is such a big deal.

When I refer to blobs with FRP, I mean it benifits the blob. Ideally if some one has a blob and has to retreat it, the punishment is no field presence for a long time. But with a close FRP you see that time cut down significantly.

I would not like to see FRP go away, I would rather like to see blobbing fixed in some better way. Or best case scenario, the vanilla factions get access to a FRP via a commander pick (balance the Sov FHQ and add upgrade purchase, add ability to command bunker for a big price maybe for Ost? I dunno, just thinking out loud).

A smart player can time a good barrage as you are retreating. It's true you can change your retreat point so I don't think this is such a big deal.

When I refer to blobs with FRP, I mean it benifits the blob. Ideally if some one has a blob and has to retreat it, the punishment is no field presence for a long time. But with a close FRP you see that time cut down significantly.

I would not like to see FRP go away, I would rather like to see blobbing fixed in some better way. Or best case scenario, the vanilla factions get access to a FRP via a commander pick (balance the Sov FHQ and add upgrade purchase, add ability to command bunker for a big price maybe for Ost? I dunno, just thinking out loud).

So how do you solve the problem you yourself stated? The one where frps basically nullify the disadvantages of blob retreating?

I also don't understand why we are only focussing on blobs? Ofc blobbing with FRPs as backup is pretty strong, but even apart from blobbing they give you a huge advantage, whether you blob or not. An MG that has to retreat and is not on the field for minutes, compared to one that retreats and is back after a few secs, is still a huge difference in terms of field presence and map control.

Can somebody explain to me how did we come to the misconception that having access to FRP magically makes your blobs more punishable to artillery than not having access to FRPs?

If anything, FRPs give you access to an additional retreat point you can use (the other being your base).

If your base gets barraged you have nowhere to go. If your FRP gets barraged, np: just deactivate FRP and hit mass retreat to your base.

A smart player can time a good barrage as you are retreating. It's true you can change your retreat point so I don't think this is such a big deal.

When I refer to blobs with FRP, I mean it benifits the blob. Ideally if some one has a blob and has to retreat it, the punishment is no field presence for a long time. But with a close FRP you see that time cut down significantly.

I would not like to see FRP go away, I would rather like to see blobbing fixed in some better way. Or best case scenario, the vanilla factions get access to a FRP via a commander pick (balance the Sov FHQ and add upgrade purchase, add ability to command bunker for a big price maybe for Ost? I dunno, just thinking out loud).

This is misconception - the latter quote.

Yes, the FRP promotes, or at least it is more friendly to, blobbing tactics but it does not force you to. A good player who does not blob with OST will not magically blob just because he has FRP as OKW. A FRP user losing half of the army to one barrage loses the units because they suck not because somehow the FRP made his strat/tactic weaker.

..........................

to all asking what to give the three factions if we remove to Retreat ability - in my opinion, just making OKW base building and UKF field base 2x health would be enough. maybe OKW med base can come with healing, too.

in terms of USF ambo, you really don't need to do anything. USF ambo comes out fastest and it heals.

@Highfiveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

if you don't use major recon and arty, you are missing out. those are incredibly affordable and essential abilities that comes non doctrinal-ly. everybody go ape-shit about USF not having non-doc mines yet they forget USF is the only faction with non-doc offmap arty and recon plane.