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Eastern Front Armies Revamp

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19 Jun 2017, 17:03 PM
#841
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1


Shouldn't they beat osttruppen and pios though? I mean, osttruppen are like 15 to reinforce and pios are engineers.


jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2017, 16:32 PMVipper

Hmg crews beating flanking unit should not happen, especially if the reinforcement cost is the same with original hmg crew.


^considering they're already more survivable than other faction's crewed weapons, having them straight up beat a flanking squad with bonus firepower is pretty dumb.

Also with for mother russia active they stomp flanking grenadiers and give sturmpios up close a run for their money o_O
19 Jun 2017, 17:50 PM
#842
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2





^considering they're already more survivable than other faction's crewed weapons, having them straight up beat a flanking squad with bonus firepower is pretty dumb.

Also with for mother russia active they stomp flanking grenadiers and give sturmpios up close a run for their money o_O


Are u talking about base crew or support weapons recrewed by conscripts?

If it's for the first, has there been any change to that?
If it's for the 2nd, this happens with all recrewed weapons. Not sure how to lower effectiveness on that specific scenario. I mean, if you recrew an MG with Pio/RE, they will probably own non full member squad who decides to close in. Same thing happens if you attack a base OH support weapon close range with RET.

While FMR is active they stomp whatever due to the added armor (live) and the added 50% accuracy makes those low accurate mosins actually do something.
19 Jun 2017, 18:02 PM
#843
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2238 | Subs: 15

What about instead a FRP, we change for a FDP (Forward deployment point) ???

Like in old CoH2 alpha, units (tanks and inf) deployment will ocurr in advanced captured sectors instead the home base. Map laterals, in this case.
19 Jun 2017, 18:05 PM
#844
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1


Are u talking about base crew or support weapons recrewed by conscripts?

If it's for the first, has there been any change to that?
If it's for the 2nd, this happens with all recrewed weapons. Not sure how to lower effectiveness on that specific scenario. I mean, if you recrew an MG with Pio/RE, they will probably own non full member squad who decides to close in. Same thing happens if you attack a base OH support weapon close range with RET.

While FMR is active they stomp whatever due to the added armor (live) and the added 50% accuracy makes those low accurate mosins actually do something.


Crewed with conscripts. with other factions you only get 3 guys firing and you lose DPS very quickly, becoming a non-factor- the only ingame situation where i've seen crewmen affecting a fight as non-soviet factions was with, of all things, fallschirm-crewed weapons- but that's a heck of a niche case and expensive/slow to reinforce anyway.

Currently conscript crewed weapons are pretty unreliable, since conscripts already have bad accuracy and there's a further 25% penalty on crewmen, if I recall. Penal crewed weapons are obviously pretty strong but those do cost a fair amount more to reinforce. In the EFA revamp, the greatly buffed accuracy of conscripts even at the cost of damage makes their performance very consistent and quite strong.

FMR obviously gives them a buff, but the ability making team weapons virtually unflankable seems very unintuitive. If the ability made the crewed weapon better at it's role during the duration while still retaining its vulnerability to flanking that would be ideal.
19 Jun 2017, 20:57 PM
#845
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

On paper the OKW changes look pretty promising! Smoke, Stuka, and T4 changes are especially welcome.
nee
19 Jun 2017, 23:38 PM
#846
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

Thread too long ... why is everyone talking about changing FRP?
Because despite not being related to EFA design it's being changed in this mod, and proposed to Relic so it goes live.

You know, like Congress slipping proposals underneath other bills.

I don't mind if it had cooldown or munitions cost, either. From micromanagement standpoint that puts a large burden on a player that tries to rely entirely on infantry blobbing. But like I said, this depends greatly on which faction's FRP being discussed.
20 Jun 2017, 04:35 AM
#847
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

A review of the bulldozer and m10 is in order, nonetheless, with what else is recommended.

I also feel call-ins in general need teching requirements before actually being called in.
20 Jun 2017, 04:42 AM
#848
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053





^considering they're already more survivable than other faction's crewed weapons, having them straight up beat a flanking squad with bonus firepower is pretty dumb.

Also with for mother russia active they stomp flanking grenadiers and give sturmpios up close a run for their money o_O

Oh I thought you meant conscripts period (like the squad on their own). You could crew an mg42 with grenadiers and it could probably beat flanking rear echelons or even combat engis though, even though it'd be a bit closer. Another thing to consider is that maxim is nowhere near comparable to mg42s.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2017, 04:35 AMVonIvan
A review of the bulldozer and m10 is in order, nonetheless, with what else is recommended.

I also feel call-ins in general need teching requirements before actually being called in.

Yeah I kind of don't understand why call-ins (vehicles, at least) don't all just work like the t34/85 and easy 8. Other than them being call-in, what's wrong with the M10 and bulldozer?
20 Jun 2017, 04:49 AM
#849
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21


Yeah I kind of don't understand why call-ins (vehicles, at least) don't all just work like the t34/85 and easy 8. Other than them being call-in, what's wrong with the M10 and bulldozer?

The m10 still feels like an easy counter to anything when rushed out at 8 CP, especially without the need to tech, mostly because it can run over most inf units and has AP rounds at vet 1, with incredible speed. While the bulldozer, even though at a good cost, seems too efficient as a unit, accuracy wise. Paks, raketens, and infantry squads get wiped consistently with said unit, even with vet and pre-attempts to retreat. Attack ground is 100% accurate on the bulldozer, I feel this especially needs to be reduced to at least 50%.
20 Jun 2017, 05:20 AM
#850
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2017, 04:49 AMVonIvan

The m10 still feels like an easy counter to anything when rushed out at 8 CP, especially without the need to tech, mostly because it can run over most inf units and has AP rounds at vet 1, with incredible speed. While the bulldozer, even though at a good cost, seems too efficient as a unit, accuracy wise. Paks, raketens, and infantry squads get wiped consistently with said unit, even with vet and pre-attempts to retreat. Attack ground is 100% accurate on the bulldozer, I feel this especially needs to be reduced to at least 50%.

Oh right, the crush. I personally don't feel like that's the biggest issue in the world, what with fausts being about as plentiful as bullets, and the ability to just retreat away, and the tank is pretty exposed if it goes to try and crush. Should still be looked at though, since it is supposed to counter tanks, not inf. So the bulldozer gun is pretty much comparable to the brummbar? If so, that's probably an issue.
20 Jun 2017, 08:34 AM
#851
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2017, 04:49 AMVonIvan

The m10 still feels like an easy counter to anything when rushed out at 8 CP, especially without the need to tech, mostly because it can run over most inf units and has AP rounds at vet 1, with incredible speed. While the bulldozer, even though at a good cost, seems too efficient as a unit, accuracy wise. Paks, raketens, and infantry squads get wiped consistently with said unit, even with vet and pre-attempts to retreat. Attack ground is 100% accurate on the bulldozer, I feel this especially needs to be reduced to at least 50%.


Technically, the Bulldozer is a slower, squishier less accurate Brummbar for the same price.

IMO, the only reason the Bulldozer is such a big deal is because:
1. It allows you to completely skip tech (whereas Brummbar is the polar opposite)
2. Skipping Major tech allows you to get both Lieutenant and Captain, giving you access to 2 free squads and all team weapons you need
20 Jun 2017, 08:56 AM
#852
avatar of aomsinzana

Posts: 284 | Subs: 1

- Is it a good idea to give Grenediers and Osstruppen to build their own sandbag ?
- And is a good idead to mearge some Osteer doctrine ability; Tank traps, Trench and Hull-down ability into one ?
20 Jun 2017, 11:15 AM
#853
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1


Oh I thought you meant conscripts period (like the squad on their own). You could crew an mg42 with grenadiers and it could probably beat flanking rear echelons or even combat engis though, even though it'd be a bit closer.

Another thing to consider is that maxim is nowhere near comparable to mg42s.


This applies to all soviet recrewed weapons, and also every captured team weapon- not just the maxim.


20 Jun 2017, 14:14 PM
#854
avatar of Treboruk

Posts: 1

Something that has always bugged me about CoH2 is how the Axis Mg's aren't historically accurate.

The Ostheer are the ones who used the MG34 more than the MG42. The Mg42 was more widely on the western front. (OKW).
Can these be swapped round in a patch, maybe? If stats are an issue, just swap them over!
20 Jun 2017, 16:22 PM
#855
avatar of FG127820

Posts: 101

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2017, 23:38 PMnee
Because despite not being related to EFA design it's being changed in this mod, and proposed to Relic so it goes live.

You know, like Congress slipping proposals underneath other bills.



... and you wonder how the US legal system is so screwed and complicated. I'm going to add this useless reply here to increase the comment count.
20 Jun 2017, 17:39 PM
#856
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Something that has always bugged me about CoH2 is how the Axis Mg's aren't historically accurate.

The Ostheer are the ones who used the MG34 more than the MG42. The Mg42 was more widely on the western front. (OKW).
Can these be swapped round in a patch, maybe? If stats are an issue, just swap them over!


The Ostheer is a faction based on 1943/1944 Wehrmacht. They used mg42s.
20 Jun 2017, 17:43 PM
#857
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Another alternative option:

Is it possible to make suppress/pinned squads to alternate between retreat points? Say, been on that stance forces you to go back to base instead of FRP?
20 Jun 2017, 17:47 PM
#858
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Another alternative option:

Is it possible to make suppress/pinned squads to alternate between retreat points? Say, been on that stance forces you to go back to base instead of FRP?


Only if you add a separate retreat ability (sort of like CoH1 retreat to captain).

Otheriwse, you can only control per squad which entities it is supposed to consider for a retreat point.
20 Jun 2017, 18:32 PM
#859
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1

Suggestion-

Fausts for Assault Grenadiers (with T1, like osttruppen)


TLDR
  • Assgrens are counterable by infantry play and are balanced in that regard with their cost and timing
  • Additional weakness in lack of faust exposes assgren play to cheese in the early game and heavily disincentivizes them in the lategame (amongst other things)
  • Giving them fausts would not significantly affect matchups to the point where assgren spam / cheese play becomes a problem [may need observation vs brits] and would make for more variety ingame



Single Shreck for Panzergrens

  • GCS and 1v1 gameplay clearly shows the propensity for wehrmacht T1 units over pgrens in the anti-inf role. This is not necessarily due to T1 being overboard in strength, but rather due to the lack of niche for panzergrens in the wehr anti-inf roster.
  • Grenadiers are almost always preferable [even when both T1 and T2 are present], with fausts, much, much lower initial cost, weapon upgrades (particularly G43) that allow the unit to punch above its reinforce cost]
  • Snipers bleed no manpower and due to how important / impactful this unit is in the USF/UKF matchup and against soviet sniper, panzergrens really can't compete
  • Single schreck would give the unit a niche in T2 as a 'safe' multirole purchase.
  • Pgren blob / spam would neither be efficient nor uncounterable, given their high upfront cost, not-overly strong anti-inf performance, nerfed bundle nade and weakness of single shreck in coh2 due to vehicle mechanics with pushing and general high lethality[see current sturmpios for reference]. As such, Wehrmacht T1 + pak or stug would still be the more cost-efficient tier for specialized units, but panzergrens would offer a flexible alternative in a faction of specialists


Other suggestions (without reasoning, maybe later)
0CP Mortar Halftrack
Riegel mines able to be laid by pioneers and 222s
20 Jun 2017, 18:53 PM
#860
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Only if you add a separate retreat ability (sort of like CoH1 retreat to captain).

Otheriwse, you can only control per squad which entities it is supposed to consider for a retreat point.


I guess that rules it out (UI nightmare).

On an unrelated note for UKF (besides whatever ideas you have):


PD: +1 to @Strumm idea for Rieggel. Not the first one to say and not the last one to mention it. Regarding Faust to Assault Grens, for me it's a no. MAYBE a weaker version of snare such as a smaller range AT nade but not equal faust to Grens.
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