While I really like the idea behind this change due to current G43 Panzergrens not being worth it at all I feel like they might be a little too strong when you consider the relative quickness with which they can be fielded combined with the fact they will be a unit with a low target size and high moving accuracy - it just begs to be YOLOed into low vet squads for easy wipes with no tactics needed. It definitely needs tweaked IMO
1. Higher Cost (it's barely more expensive than the Gren version for a double upgrade on a superior squad?)
2. Old PTRS Upgrade system when you can buy X2 G43 and then X2 again after BP2 or something.
3. Lower it to 3 G43 so blobbing isn't quite so encouraged
4. Some kind of different route - X1 or X2 G43 but they get Jaeger Light Infantry Version!? (dare to dream!)
I think Panzergrenadiers are in a good spot right now. No need to change them anymore. They are viable and with the recent vet change, they also scale very well. The only things that might be candidates for a change are reinforcement time, and the g43 upgrade. But this is a matter of fine tuning, not completely changing the behavior of a unit.
Considering the cost and timing of Penals PG are not cost efficient out of box. Even comparing them with duel lmg Guards their not cost efficient.
First of all thank to balance team for the mod. I have some suggestions:
-ELEphant shortcut (HE barrage ability) would move to same ISU 152 (concrete ability). To standardize same cell position.
-QoL. New abilities introduced (KV2, etc) do not have step "A"
While I really like the idea behind this change due to current G43 Panzergrens not being worth it at all I feel like they might be a little too strong when you consider the relative quickness with which they can be fielded combined with the fact they will be a unit with a low target size and high moving accuracy - it just begs to be YOLOed into low vet squads for easy wipes with no tactics needed. It definitely needs tweaked IMO
If it's absolutely necessary, we can tune it down to 3 G43s, or increase the cost. We can't delay the CP requirements, since that will affect grenadier G43's (in the world of EFA revamp Grenadiers absolutely need their upgrades to survive post a certain cons vet level).
In the worst case, we might as well make the upgrade non-doctrinal and make it require a certain battlephase to delay it.
The issue with the upgrade is that it is already in all of the must-use commanders, and Grenadier G43's are already damn good.
For the time being, since our mod only includes EFA armies, 4 G43's is OK, since you now you have a pure AI squad with no shred of AT utility. In the future, when we begin to include WFA armies and their infantry needs to be taken into account, something might have to give way; if necessary.
When I would say its the penals fault, not the PGs.
That might be also true but the fact that they actually need a reinforcement discount to become remotely efficient indicates that their original cost too high.
Test them against PPsh conscript in the MOD and see how bad you will bleed.
That might be also true but the fact that they actually need a reinforcement discount to become remotely efficient indicates that their original cost too high.
For the time being, since our mod only includes EFA armies,
Thanks for the response - I think something like 75 Muni might be fair for 4 G43 if it keeps current performance. If anything they are hella fun to use.
I'm curious - any chance the Call-In Cost change could affect all factions? I know you are at the mercy of The Scope but if not I can't help but feel that EFA would be handicapped against the current Pershing/Command Panther meta otherwise. It's really one of those changes that shouldn't be done piecemeal.
If ISU-152 HE shells now fly like shells of StugE, it's means that AOE was increased too? Because i don't know how you can hit to anything with slow move shells with legendary ROF of ISU-152.
Thanks for the response - I think something like 75 Muni might be fair for 4 G43 if it keeps current performance. If anything they are hella fun to use.
I'm curious - any chance the Call-In Cost change could affect all factions? I know you are at the mercy of The Scope but if not I can't help but feel that EFA would be handicapped against the current Pershing/Command Panther meta otherwise. It's really one of those changes that shouldn't be done piecemeal.
There's no scope. This is our own personal project, (Miragefla's and mine; with a lot of feedback from TheMachine), and Relic has no involvement in it.
The reason you haven't seen consistent changes to WFA factions are that:
- Not all changes are easy to copy-paste (Brit trench and WASP veterancy was easy; smoke delays is more involved)
- We want people to focus on exploring EFA core interactions. We don't want to pin OKW to Soviet levels and then realise that OST has no chance vs new Soviets.
Once we have nailed Conscript DPS curves and veterancy pacing, we can move to OKW revamp with greater confidence. However, touching other factions is further down the line (but it will come!).
Stug G
We find the overall stats of the Stug (penetration, rate of fire, accuracy) far too excessive for its cost). We are recalibrating the Stug so that it remains highly efficient vs medium armour. At the same time we are reducing its anti-heavy armour potential to create more space for the high-tech Panther.
Note that the Stug retains a high penetration value at close range. This will give Stugs the option to charge against enemy armour (at close range), if a target needs to be taken down quickly.
-Penetration from 200/185/170 to 200/150/140
-Population from 8 to 9
-Pintle MG upgrade cost from 50 to 40 (fixed arc)
-Pintle MG range increased from 35 to 40
-TWP damage from 160 to 80
-TWP effect: blind for 5 seconds
Although the stug overperform it also has lees sight radius and is out ranged having the shortest range of any turretless TD. The Idea that it will be able to close in to operate makes little sense since it runs the risk of being circle strafed.
Suggestions:
1) Try increasing range to 60 so it can at least fire back at allied tds
2) Greatly decrease target size. That increase the real life feel, since it was designed to have low profile and in game it can help it survive long range shots from allied TDs.
3) Replace vet armor bonus with target size bonus and/or HP. Replace some of the ROF changes with some penetration.
4) Reduce the ROF a bit if it needs a nerf
5) allow the unit to rotate faster when stationary via an ability or as hull down bonus replacing the existing ones. Generally speaking the hull down bonuses for turretless vehicles should change.
Imo removing the teammate benefit is change in the wrong direction. If there is an issue with specific units like the KT change the bonuses for the specific units.
Suggestion:
1) (This is a suggestion for most auras) make the aura scale with veterancy. That will greatly help balance the unit and require player skill.
2) Lower vet requirement since the unit is mostly AI.
3) If the is an issue with teammates have teammates receive less bonuses.
Overall, i think the direction is fine and that there are only a few changes which are controversial. There are others which have too much direct influence on only been able to be applied if there are tweaks on the WFA+UK armies.
If i don't mention anything is because i agree mostly.
General changes:
Call Ins: if the tiered building associated is destroyed, cost rollbacks or stays with the discount. I ask what you have in mind for OKW T4. All in all, i think it's fine.
Soviets:
Conscripts: this is gonna be a pain in the ass to get it right but worth the effort.
Anecdote: it might not be worrisome due to now having only a single available ability which affects acc (FHQ aura been removed) but doesn't this make things like FMR (for mother russia) irrelevant at some points? Basically if you are not engaging high vet low size squads, the bonus is not doing anything? (Just like Valiant Assault).
Flavour: i like been able to maneuver early on with Cons while using Hoorah. It's kinda prohibiting if the cost is increased. I mean, if the numbers presented are right, you are not increasing by much the close DPS, molotovs are only faster thrown at vet2 and nothing crazy has been done in other aspects.
AT-Nade/Molotov/AT satchel/PTRS
Was it tried to fuse AT-Nade and Molotov upgrade in a single tech choice and link the AT satchel or PTRS into it.
Demos
-So it will still wipe enemies which are bunching up together (in comparison to mines) and can force retreat to AT gun even if they are in the outer side ?
-Does this apply to booby trap like demos or timed ones? Probably not, but worth asking.
-Does this have any weird effect on emplacements?
Flare
Reduce cost is nice. Revealing cloak too OP ? Both sniper and mortar.
Guards Troops:
My approach. I still think they are losing some value, even if they get a mp cost decrease since they lose the capabilities of fielding both light AT (which it wasn't bad AI defensively) and AI (DPs) and now they even have to buy back the PTRS.
Option "l33t" piñata dudes:
-Keep the current live version status quo. 360mp-4slots-PTRS on spawn-Drop rate
-Apply mosin/nade changes
-PTRS with old pre WBP performance
-Hit the dirt > changed to "Hold the line" or any cheesy defensive like name. IF anything this goes more to the old "Defensive Stance" approach
Only activable while outside of combat. Can the range bonus be increased to slot weapons to +5 (what Pathfinders, JLI and Falls get). NVM just increase the range to +5 in all since it's a defensive ability mostly (not passive or WOWSHITTOGGLE it during combat)
Basically a slight improvement on their current state.
Option EFA Revamp 2.0
-Cost to 330mp (old cost)
-MAYBE: weapon slots to 3. I think it might cause issues but i can't let it go♪ ...RIP piñata dudes with stuff.
-Spawn with mosins.
-Double weapon upgrade. Either double DPs or Double PTRS. Drop rate to 0.1 or middle ground.
-DPs keep the button effect, the pseudo CC/Snare.
-PTRS gives a different ability. First 2 shots applies a RoF reduction. From the 2nd volley (3 shots onwards), it applies the turret lock crit (you can still shoot). Keeps refreshing if the target stays on target.
-"Defensive stance" see point before.
Soviet PM-42 Mortar
Popcap from 6 to 5. How does this work? Crew also to 5? Didn't fraction popcap cause issues?
PD: same with other units which have 6 man crew and now pop of 5.
Urban Defense Tactics:
Option 1 which is more likely to be accepted by Relic:
Reduce cost and remove damage modifier. Keep def buffs.
Option 2 more interesting:
Let it be built on bunkers.
Replace armored detection with defensive emplacements (this is a combined change with Defensive commander abilities). Tank traps + bunker
I want to think that these have been forgotten, any ideas to improve? HTD, Tank traps, AT grenade assault, Personal AI/AT mines
OH
Stormtroopers
STG upgrade slightly cheaper?
Call in specifics + Techings
RIGHT NOW:
-From BP2 to get all tech, it requires 660mp/220f.
-Getting only T3, it's 360mp/120f
-Skipping T3 to T4, it's 400mp/145f
-EFA Patch to get all tech, 560mp/170f (also discount on call in)
PERSONAL CHANGES v1:
Call in discount requires BP3 (it's hard to make it free without purpose IMO).
Tiers 3-4 are independent from BP and BP from Ts. BP unlocks units.
T3 gives Stugs. T4 gives PW. BP2 gives PIV and Ostwind. BP3 unlocks Brumbar, PV and Call in tank discount.
-Getting only Stugs, 260mp/60f
-Getting T3 complete, 360mp/120f
-Getting PW, needs Stugs, 460mp/135f
-Getting T4 complete, n. stugs, 560mp/160f (which also gives call in discount)
-Unlocking only call in discount, 200mp 85f
-All tech 660mp/220f
TBH i don't want to expand on this cause it was already a mess of swapping values to present this "simple" idea which doesn't mess with current timings too much.
Spotting scopes/Smoke Tactician:
I thought they were mostly fine. Smoke been countered by attack ground. Keep cost, decrease delay. Increase cost, remove delay.
About other forgotten things:
Smoke bombs: make them not require LOS
Sector arty: ???
HT riegel: 222 deploy ?
Defensive doctrine: combined trenches with tank traps and give some love
Conscripts: We could reduce the cost of abilities back to their original, but we will need to see given that testing seems to show Conscripts can hold their ground quite well even vs OKW except Kubels.
AT-Nade/Molotov/AT satchel/PTRS I think we're holding off on fusing the upgrades until we can confirm where Conscript stand on the scale. We could possibly package items from Penals into upgrades, though that could hurt T1 given its need to fight for its map control and fewer units.
Demos
-It is not strong enough, even vs clumped units to wipe out full squads. It will stun, so you can follow up.
-Booby trap is unaffected. Timed demo should be unaffected.
-Emplacements shouldn't be affected as the critical applies to infantry. Maybe on Pak 43s and Howies.
Urban Defense Tactics:
We are likely going to return the aura in some form since you cannot pop an HQ in neutral territory.
Spotting scopes/Smoke Tactician:
Smoke will likely be seeing the delay shortened.
About other forgotten things:
Smoke bombs: Will bring it up
Sector arty: It's very powerful, but limited to one sector for defense in crappy doctrines.
HT riegel: Possibly.
Defensive doctrine: A lot of the defenses stuff in the Defensive docs should be combined, I agree.
OST Tier 4
We are experimenting with making OST T4 more accessible than it was before. Currently, we find that too many OST players find themselves “trapped” in either T3 or T4, unable to build the other tier. This, most often occurs at the expense of T4, since T3 already provides a wide-range of cheap units to augment the OST composition.
Patches, so far, have tried to address this issue by occasionally making certain T4 units overpowered to make T4 worth it (e.g., the Panzerwerfer, multiple patches ago). We find that a more sustainable solution is to simply make T4 considerably more accessible, and assign unique, but not overpowered roles to the units therein.
For the puproses of 1v1, we find that the changes to the call-in functionality, and changes to light-vehicles, will further foster the necessary feeling of security to invest in teching, rather than battle it out with low-tech solutions.
To prevent the easily-forseeable side-effects of people skipping T3 to get the T4 stuff (especially when resource inflation is involved), we are linearizing access to T4; T4 now requires T3.
-Battlephase 3 is now completely free (researched instantly)
-Tier 4 Now requires Tier 3 to be built
Imo the solution does not really touch the real issues of Tier 4 and making Ostheer the only faction that actually needs all building is the wrong way going about it.
Imo the real problem with Ostheer comes from the fact:
1) Panzer IV is not solid investment. Panzer IV is totally negated by SU-85 since it can be hit and penetrated even when vetted and even at range 60. The chance to score a "natural" hit on medium at ranges above 50 need to go down drastically.
2) T4 offers very expensive but highly dedicated options.
3) BP 3 and BP 4 offer no other bonuses, for instance UKF have enough tool to deal with anything they need without hammer or Anvil but the bonuses they get from it make worth it even if one does not build a premium tank.
Suggestions:
1) Give a CP gain on researching BP. It one of the few thing in the game that has a cost but does not return any CP.
The following suggestion could either or:
2) Increase the flexibility of T4 by providing a main battle tank. That could be achieved by number of way. For instance: allow Panther switchable MU similar to ISU-152 so it can engage either soft or hard targets. Other either turn Panther into a main battle tank and Tiger into tank destroyer or move Tiger into T4 and make Panther doctrinal.
3) Have Brumbar moved to T3 and Ostwind to T4 allow more flexibility. This will allow player to skip t3 and built an Ostwind until they can build a Panther. Brumbar will probably need to have its damage toned down a bit orand have to locked behind PB4.
Demo charge
We are changing the way demo charges perform. Rather than guarantee a squad wipe, demo charges can now be used to secure flanks, deal a high amount of damage and force squads to retreat.
Before I come to my point. Thanks the Mod team for the good work and effort they put into CoH2
Why not change Demo in general to booby traps like OKW has. Demos are the biggest cheesy nobrainer Bullpudding this game has in store. It has literally zero purpose, but to frustrate the opposing player. For those claiming it is needed to destroy buildings what so ever: First of all: SU has penal for that as well. Second of all: Why don have Axis demos as well? Right, because it is a absolutely cheesy not fun to play ability that needs to be removed!
The two factions present a bottleneck in the early game of upgrades, which for a long time prevent them from constructing units in T0. What forces to build in superior Techs.
Therefore the updates should not exceed 24 seconds (which is the standard content of construction of Conscrips/Grenadiers).
Imo:
-BP1 should be exclusive like the upgrade for grenadiers (same icon and name BP1 also located in T0) ATnades/Grenades with 24seconds cooldown. Not linked to an technology.
-Molo and ATnade would be 12seconds and 12 seconds each.
-BP2/3 Has an excessive time of 60 seconds each blocking any construction of T0. So it should be reduced to 24 seconds and 24 seconds respectively and the remaining time added to the Techs respectively.
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