Redesign Penal battalions

In that case, should we tone down the HMG42 to the new maxim level cuz as mentioned the difference between grens and other, the maxim requires tech.

How do we match the Ostheer sniper with the inexistant USF sniper?
How do we match Pzgrenadiers with USF/Sov/Brit inexistant stock elite squads?

You are opening several other issues. this thread is about Penals mostly.

The sort response is any of the unit you mentioned might need an adjustment but it only a slight one.

Esxile just trying to show, that to balanced ALL factions to soviets it's more harder way then balanced soviets to other. More easier it's try to find decision for soviets that will be working. Because all other factions have some (more or less, but it has) balance. Only soviets drop out of this, with their falling only to T1 or T2 meta opening with every new patch (that only show how bad balanced faction).

Vipper, the way you offer looks as if you want repaint all doors in house in another color, because one door have one color. More easier repaint one door, not to repaint all doors.

Esxile just trying to show, that to balanced ALL factions to soviets it's more harder way then balanced soviets to other. More easier it's try to find decision for soviets that will be working. Because all other factions have some (more or less, but it has) balance. Only soviets drop out of this, with their falling only to T1 or T2 meta opening with every new patch (that only show how bad balanced faction).

And you are assuming that Soviet actually are weaker when then did better the most other faction in last tournament.

I have explained to you several times that having DPS similar to that of Riflemen, Penal and Tommies makes the game RNG instead tactical so it these units that need toning down and to Conscript to buffed to their level. I have little to add to this point feel free to have different opinion.

You are opening several other issues. this thread is about Penals mostly.

The sort response is any of the unit you mentioned might need an adjustment but it only a slight one.

This thread is about Penals but you're arguing over IS and RM squads being superior than Grenadiers. Then when I ask you what do we do about the rest, pof, the thread is again about Penals only.

I have explained to you several times that having DPS similar to that of Riflemen, Penal and Tommies makes the game RNG instead tactical so it these units that need toning down and to Conscript to buffed to their level. I have little to add to this point feel free to have different opinion.

Yes, let's make all infantry the same but with differents skins? How you imagine that will be works? You want to tone down ALL CORE infantry to near Cons level? DPS it's only one side of problem, another sides:
1. Late game scaling
2. Side upgrades (weapon and grenades)
3. Synergy with other faction units
4. Uniqueness of each faction design

RNG is part of game, we don't play in Starcraft 2, where all characteristics are pure maths and digits. You mistake that you see soviets as WFA and want see their infantry like WFA infantry (or see WFA like EFA, that the same thing). Soviets and OST have old design. Especially soviets where all units good not one by one, but only and ALWAYS with other units together. If you play for USF you can build riflemens with zooks and bars, or build tommies with brens and piats. But for soviet you need build cons+maxim+zis3 and use Merge and Hoora to support them, it's totally different approach.

This thread is about Penals but you're arguing over IS and RM squads being superior than Grenadiers. Then when I ask you what do we do about the rest, pof, the thread is again about Penals only.

Ok you want the long answer:

In that case, should we tone down the HMG42 to the new maxim level cuz as mentioned the difference between grens and other, the maxim requires tech.

The tech cost of maxim compared to hmg42 does not mean much. Its 160/20 and if one wanted to calculate that Grenadier should be far superior from what they are now because they have 80/10 cost tech cost. Ostheer would be actually better of, if grenadiers swapped place with the Hmg42 and where able to build mainline infantry from base building like the other factions.

Should the hmg42 be toned? "no" the maxim need to have aim time fixed and then will see.

How do we match the Ostheer sniper with the inexistant USF sniper?

The same way OKW deal vs snipers.

The Ostheer sniper was hit hard by the changes to camo (and rightfully). He might need a slight reduction to ROF but that about it. Unless some one want to redesign sniper and have all of them with reduced ROF and a lower price.

How do we match Pzgrenadiers with USF/Sov/Brit inexistant stock elite squads?

Soviet have stock elite infantry they are called Penals. Pg are hardly cost efficient because they need to mid range to effective and bleed like crazy. On top of that hey have high tech cost and come late. Yet my suggestion would be to lower their price to 280-300 and have them spawn with 2 ST44 +2 98k and be allow to upgrade 1+1 shreck and the shreck repalcing the St44.

Now can we move back to Penals and the suggestions made in Op?

Yes, let's make all infantry the same but with differents skins? How you imagine that will be works? You want to tone down ALL CORE infantry to near Cons level? DPS it's only one side of problem, another sides:
1. Late game scaling
2. Side upgrades (weapon and grenades)
3. Synergy with other faction units
4. Uniqueness of each faction design

RNG is part of game, we don't play in Starcraft 2, where all characteristics are pure maths and digits. You mistake that you see soviets as WFA and want see their infantry like WFA infantry (or see WFA like EFA, that the same thing). Soviets and OST have old design. Especially soviets where all units good not one by one, but only and ALWAYS with other units together. If you play for USF you can build riflemens with zooks and bars, or build tommies with brens and piats. But for soviet you need build cons+maxim+zis3 and use Merge and Hoora to support them, it's totally different approach.

And the EFA are far better designed than WFA, and that is why its the WFA that need to move closer to EFA and not the other way round.

No it is not. As I have explained high lethality means that fight last very little time and more RNG than tactical. If for instance assault infantry lose half their models on approach they become useless.

On the September patch small arm fire where about balanced and only small adjustment where needed after that:
1) Tommies where introduced
2) Penal had their far DPS doubled
3) VG got the weird MP44
4) Riflemen got a T0 mortar

all this destroyed the infantry balance. The way to is nerf upgunned VG, riflemen, Tommies and Penals.

In addition Soviet have some design in mind that leaves room for Penal/conscripts and Elite infantry and that is what is suggested here.

Yeah, not like you are skipping all the other issues the game had at that moment and were made evident when those issues were removed/fixed at the current present.

"On the September patch small arm fire where about balanced". Lol nope. Everything hold up with each faction having their BS arriving at key points during the game.

Prior to those changes mentioned:

-IIRC when introduced, Tommies were lackluster. UKF in general was lackluster for 1v1 but broken OP (till AEC buffs) for teamgames. Wasn't UKF a joke for 1v1 tournaments?

-Riflemen were still pawning OH but, OH had BS sniper play with cheap as 222 to counter M20 play. If no edge was gain through that and MG42 play, then USF just went for a Stuart and OH had to hold back till either the pak/PG schreck/teller kill it or the game drag into the late game.
Can't remember well the match up against OKW, but i do remember that USF still had Rifles with flamer at that point.

-OKW main line infantry still pawned SU infantry. Schreck were still an AI upgrade (due to snipes). Most people just relied on maxim spam against OKW (which had big issues against it) cause Cons and Penals were lackluster. T1 was only about clowncar flamer, cause it was easier to micro against a schreck rather than a snare.
PD: didn't we had ISG/Howie with suppression at this time? Also, Scavenge the only meta in the same way Guard motor for SU.

Sorry, but infantry play was far from been OK. Also something you and most might be missing...

OFFENSIVE VETERANCY DIDN'T WORK! #vetgate.

-Balanced OH vs SU match up? Well that was because SU has so much wiping capabilities (mine, demos, T70) and conscripts were resilient. Also Guards were pretty good.
-OH vs USF: already explained before.
-OH vs UKF: steamrolling UKF
-OKW vs SU: maxim spam or clowncar flamer.
-OKW vs UKF: outspammed.
-OKW vs USF: can't remember really well the match up but wasn't it mostly ISG vs Rifles?

Snip

Also, suppression kubelwagen.

Also, suppression kubelwagen.

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Kubeljesus? I thought not. It’s not a story the Allied players would tell you. It’s an Axis legend. Kubeljesus was a light vehicle of the OKW, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the bullets to create suppression… He had such an oppressive power that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. The veterancy it could get, was a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was a rushed clowncar, which eventually, of course, it appeared. Unfortunately, he caught the attention of Relic, which then killed him during it's rework. Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.

Yeah, not like you are skipping all the other issues the game had at that moment and were made evident when those issues were removed/fixed at the current present.

"On the September patch small arm fire where about balanced". Lol nope. Everything hold up with each faction having their BS arriving at key points during the game.

Prior to those changes mentioned:

-IIRC when introduced, Tommies were lackluster. UKF in general was lackluster for 1v1 but broken OP (till AEC buffs) for teamgames. Wasn't UKF a joke for 1v1 tournaments?

-Riflemen were still pawning OH but, OH had BS sniper play with cheap as 222 to counter M20 play. If no edge was gain through that and MG42 play, then USF just went for a Stuart and OH had to hold back till either the pak/PG schreck/teller kill it or the game drag into the late game.
Can't remember well the match up against OKW, but i do remember that USF still had Rifles with flamer at that point.

-OKW main line infantry still pawned SU infantry. Schreck were still an AI upgrade (due to snipes). Most people just relied on maxim spam against OKW (which had big issues against it) cause Cons and Penals were lackluster. T1 was only about clowncar flamer, cause it was easier to micro against a schreck rather than a snare.
PD: didn't we had ISG/Howie with suppression at this time? Also, Scavenge the only meta in the same way Guard motor for SU.

Sorry, but infantry play was far from been OK. Also something you and most might be missing...

OFFENSIVE VETERANCY DIDN'T WORK! #vetgate.

-Balanced OH vs SU match up? Well that was because SU has so much wiping capabilities (mine, demos, T70) and conscripts were resilient. Also Guards were pretty good.
-OH vs USF: already explained before.
-OH vs UKF: steamrolling UKF
-OKW vs SU: maxim spam or clowncar flamer.
-OKW vs UKF: outspammed.
-OKW vs USF: can't remember really well the match up but wasn't it mostly ISG vs Rifles?

I did not claim that the game was balanced I claimed that small arms fight between mainline infantry where about balanced.

I did not claim that the game was balanced I claimed that small arms fight between mainline infantry where about balanced.

Considering main line infantry, whatever is viable of getting +3 units of them. I'll repeat myself only focusing on that.

-IS didn't work against Volks/Grens. RE were overperforming for cost once they were able to access to weapons or anvil. Great a whole faction which didn't work on 1v1.
-Rifles pawned Volks/Grens. RET spam was a thing. Full aggro faction which steamrolls early on and falls over as the game progress.
-Cons were on par with Grens till LMG42, but since they didn't get offensive vet and cons got extra defensive vet, they were on par. Outclassed against anything else unless PPSH. Penals were not seen. Occasional Shock and Guard spam was a thing tbh (2v2+). Didn't we have Partisan madness?
-Grens on par with cons, demolished by Rifles, outclassing IS due to cost (?). Can't remember how much of Prostruppen did we have. Also IIRC, Grens were bugged (?).
-Volks heavy mixing JLI and the occasional PF/Fall. Outspamming IS, outscaling cons, suffering against Rifles (but the heavy schreck made their tank play miserable).

All this on top of having #vetgate. Sorry but i'll have to differ on having mainline infantry combat been balanced.

Considering main line infantry, whatever is viable of getting +3 units of them. I'll repeat myself only focusing on that.

On the Update September 9th, 2014 (https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/page/2) the infantry available at the start of the game are balanced not in the vacuum but one vs the other.

Infantry Combat Tuning
The intent of these changes is to better define the strengths and weaknesses of each core unit relative to one another. We wanted to better define how each core unit should engage their perspective targets. For example, in a Grenadier vs. Riflemen match up, the Grenadiers want to maintain range. This is now a valid tactic, where in the past it was not. An integral element to this iteration is the introduction of received accuracy in place of raw damage. This was used in instances where additional fire power was not necessary in maintaining the established unit relationships. For example, Grenadier long range fire power is high enough to establish the unit’s relative relationship with other units, allowing us to increase their durability instead. As a by-product of this shift, short and mid range units should have an easier time closing in on their target.

After that changes made things allot worse by:
1) Introducing the USF T0 mortar.
This change allowed the riflemen to fight grenadier at long range and let the mortar support them reducing the affect of relative positioning.


2) Increase Penal far DPS (by around X2) creating a units where relative positioning play little part since it has good DPS at all ranges. Actually the unit had become so OP that several nerfs had to be applied but the most problematic feature of the unit (high DPS at all ranges) was not touched. (The issue would be more obvious is VG did not get similar treatment)

3)Tommie where introduced a problematic unit where again relative positioning has little impact since they can beat axis mainline infantry at all ranges.

4) VG got ST44, that increased their mid to close performance allot, again creating a unit with high DPS at all ranges and reducing the effect of relative positioning.

The September patch demonstrated the correct way to patch the small arm fights, balance all early infantry 1vs1 other and not in the vacuum with weapon profiles and relative positioning in mind.

We tried during the Winter Penal Balance Preview, but they ignored most of it and simply kept buffing penals via different ways.

I think this unit is in a sweet spot right now. MrSmith's team did a great job, and there has been four months of Penals iterations. There is no need for more change. elchino7 is right and I don't know why Vipper is digging in patchnotes from 2014 and changing its wording to get her point across; the game has evolved loads since. Don't change Penals, focus on upping Conscripts a bit and making maxims great again.

It would be cool to see Penals and Cons roles not overlap in some way. But I don't know an easy way of achieving it really.

Like make Penals better at long range and cons better at short range meaning you need to choose different things for different maps, but that might mess up some other stuff.

Conscripts at this time just seem like far worse Penals (when PPSH is not involved anyway).

Yes, conscripts need some love (along with dushka nerfs)

I think what Vipper wants to say, is what each unit should excel at a special range, not at every range. And I have to partially agree with him. The gren/ rifleman engagement is a good example for it. Grens win long range, but loose close to mid, so you can calculate the outcome of a fight (given that rng doesn't screw you over).
This consistency is something that got partially destroyed by the Volksgrenadier Stg upgrade, Tommies and Penals. Because they are good at all ranges, so you can't predict an outcome reliably because rng plays a way bigger role. But I dont think Penals are the worst offender in this category. After all, this nerfs and changes they are in a somewhat decent spot, sure they could get some fine tuning but the Volksgrenadier STG should be priority nr. 1 Because right now with the Stg upgrade Riflemen don't win reliably in close combat anymore, how it was design to be. I would favour a role change upgrade, the mp40 comes to mind.
Future patches should focus on reinforcing the clear role of infantry relative to each other (if relic allows it of course ). So what you always know how you should position your units then approaching different opponents.

The problem is thus STG, not Penals.