OKW's early game over-dominance

YOU WON'T dodge flame nade to the face. Regular nades or even nuke elite nades have a timer, which makes dodging them on landing a possibility.
Flame nade dodging possibility comes from it's fly time, which is negligible when sharing the same cover.

That been said, they are expensive and the only real anti garrison tool they have.
KINDA OFF: would it make more sense to give them molotov or make it only target garrison instead?



The problem was that Volks ACTUALLY gained AI when they upgraded schrecks (sniping models) and vet. Which means they didn't sacrifice AI presence on top of been cheaper to reinforce and they could still pick up weapons on field (vet AT issue just fixed on this WBP). Volk schreck blob was as mindless as maxim spam. You didn't care about losses, you A move and retreat after firing a volley of AT and sniping a tank.

NO ONE puts Zook/PIATS on Rifles/IS. IS are expensive and suck on the move and Rifles are on a simil boat. Penals AT blob is a joke and makes you look bad but if you mention it. NOW, the real platform for double AT are RET (which got mp and vet nerf) and RE (proper nerf to vet3 and PIAT change).

Haha forgot about the ol' one-shotting of full health snipers and infantrymen models with a random shreck in the blob. Don't forget that the kars would actually turn decently potent when it was vet5 volks vs. vet2 rifles and tommies with single weapons at that point, and (might be wrong) I think their RA vet bonuses used to be stronger back then too. I would say it was more mindless than maxims because at least maxims didn't get to shoot the best rockets in the game.

It's a huge advantage when dealing with anti tank guns as they have a gun shield. Flame nade negates that entirely. A regular grenade is also not a guaranteed kill against green cover short of poor grouping. While that is not ideal it sometimes helps. A flame nade forces you to move regardless.

I didn't say StGs were good at all ranges. I said the unit was good at all ranges. I believe they still have 3 kar 98's, no? Allied weapon upgrades also actually drop making double equipping a risk - especially for tommies.

I'm pretty sure that the stgs are a straight dps increase at all ranges, not by much at very long range, but still an increase. Same can be said for BARs and brens I think too though.

It's a huge advantage when dealing with anti tank guns as they have a gun shield. Flame nade negates that entirely. A regular grenade is also not a guaranteed kill against green cover short of poor grouping. While that is not ideal it sometimes helps. A flame nade forces you to move regardless.

I didn't say StGs were good at all ranges. I said the unit was good at all ranges. I believe they still have 3 kar 98's, no? Allied weapon upgrades also actually drop making double equipping a risk - especially for tommies.

Why would one ever throw a flame nade (or a normal one) at an AT gun? If you in grenade range and the at gun is unsupported, it's going to die or run away soon enough anyways. Are you actually using such an obscure and rare event as evidence for the flame nades overpowered-ness vs normal nades? Btw if one throws a normal grenade properly, the gun shield does nothing anyways.

Are you trying to say because the unit still has 3 kar98s, the squad is good at all ranges? What definition of good are you using? Kar98s long range dps doesn't have anything on any allied weapon upgrade. You do know that Kar98s don't do that much damage right?

And I think you are seriously overestimating the risk of dropping a weapon vs the reward of having much higher dps. It's like saying shrekblobs were ok since there is the chance for the shrek to drop. WTF?

Also could you explain why you think volks are resilient to damage, I'm still confused about that one.

I'm pretty sure that the stgs are a straight dps increase at all ranges, not by much at very long range, but still an increase. Same can be said for BARs and brens I think too though.

I think the dps increase at long range is like .1 over a Kar 98 (with the hidden disadvantage of spreading the dps over the whole squad entity).

In my book that increase is hardly worth mentioning.

No insult to Findeed, but you really don't understand how multiple okw players in 3's/4's break the game and snowball hard with their FRP BHQ set up around important areas 4 minutes into the game. It's almost impossible to beat when they retreat ~30 meters and you have to retreat half the length of the map.

and 2+ UKF with 5 min of lull, can create emplacements hells, yes, hell so great it is plural.

this problem of "building up of critical cheese force" in bigger team game modes falls directly on smaller map and map layout design.

@voltardark

i am sorry to say all your recent threads are basically your words vs. others. and your words can't take you far. you gotta play axis, gotta have replays.

btw i think allies are still dominant ones.

Btw if one throws a normal grenade properly, the gun shield does nothing anyways.

The 2 models manning the weapon don't benefit from the green cover generated by the AT gun itself. The other crew members do so, but they are generally spread out so they don't stay nearby it. BUT if you put an AT gun behind cover, the operators will benefit from it.

I think the dps increase at long range is like .1 over a Kar 98 (with the hidden disadvantage of spreading the dps over the whole squad entity).

You mean advantage right? Focus_fire = false means that the weapon actually has double chances of hitting a target which indirectly increases the damage done. This extra damage applies to models of other squads (if they are to the sides or behind) as well.
It's not that the model carrying the weapon shoots and switches targeting models. It's that their misses on it's primary target can still hit other entities.

Why would one ever throw a flame nade (or a normal one) at an AT gun? If you in grenade range and the at gun is unsupported, it's going to die or run away soon enough anyways. Are you actually using such an obscure and rare event as evidence for the flame nades overpowered-ness vs normal nades? Btw if one throws a normal grenade properly, the gun shield does nothing anyways.

Are you trying to say because the unit still has 3 kar98s, the squad is good at all ranges? What definition of good are you using? Kar98s long range dps doesn't have anything on any allied weapon upgrade. You do know that Kar98s don't do that much damage right?

And I think you are seriously overestimating the risk of dropping a weapon vs the reward of having much higher dps. It's like saying shrekblobs were ok since there is the chance for the shrek to drop. WTF?

Also could you explain why you think volks are resilient to damage, I'm still confused about that one.

You asked for an example, I gave the first one that came to mind. If you were in range, why wouldn't you throw a flame nade at an AT gun and force it to move? That's why I pick on the flame nade - there's never a bad situation for one. It's better than a standard nade for most situations. Standard nades can be dodged and deny cover for all of a second or so while it detonates. Flame nades deny cover for much longer.

Since you mention shreckblobs - yes, having only one weapon that rarely dropped was a massive bloody factor in why that was so obnoxious. Panzergrens with 2 shrecks were much easier to deal with precisely because it cut the squad DPS and there was a risk of losing them. Thanks for the logical fallacy though.

Since you want to go into it, yes the volks only have 0.81 rec accuracy compared to ~0.77 for allied squads at max vet, making them ever so slightly easier to hit. I don't have the vet bonuses for every squad in the game memorized unfortunately, I have better things to do with my time. They still have 5 men with a reasonable rec accuracy. Equivalent squads either cost more (rifles, tommies), have less men (grens, tommies before upgrade) or lack upgrades (cons). It takes a reasonably significant investment to get allied squads close to what volks have in terms of kit (nades, AT snares, weapon unlocks).

To go back a bit, volks do not need half of this stuff because OKW has more than enough other options. They were designed to be complemented by sturmpios, kubels (when they suppressed) and later obersoldaten. Those haven't went away. If anything they've been complemented with the addition of the MG34.

Since you want to go into it, yes the volks only have 0.81 rec accuracy compared to ~0.77 for allied squads at max vet, making them ever so slightly easier to hit. I don't have the vet bonuses for every squad in the game memorized unfortunately, I have better things to do with my time.

Then why are you making posts about it when you yourself admit you dont actually know what you are talking about.

FWIW no allied squads have .77 target size at max vet.

Cons: .6522
Penials .85
RM: .634
Tommies: .616

No one is saying to memorize every stat in the game, but at least take the one minute of effort to look up the stats before saying "volks are durable"

Then why are you making posts about it when you yourself admit you dont actually know what you are talking about.

FWIW no allied squads have .77 target size at max vet.

Cons: .6522
Penials .85
RM: .634
Tommies: .616

No one is saying to memorize every stat in the game, but at least take the one minute of effort to look up the stats before saying "volks are durable"

Don't forget that some weapons were meant to engage the four man squads that ost has. The normal Soviet mortar, for example, has lower performance than its ost counterpart partially because they are used on grens and pgrens, not cons or penals like the ost one. The pre-nerf usf mortar was basically a copypasta'd ost mortar that shot like slightly faster or something I think, but it was incredibly overpowered especially against ost since they have smaller squads that cost a lot to maintain. The opposite is true for volks, and they are much cheaper than rifles and tommies and still scale really well. I would say penals and volks are about comparable after the very early game since volks get stgs and cost pretty much the same (penals cost 50 more initially). Let's not even talk about cons since that's a whole other story. Also, when you said the very very slight dps increase of the stg upgrade at max range is not worth mentioning since it's so small, it really is simply because it's not a decrease.

looks like they cpmpletely unaware of what they do 10 sec dealay before ability activation. axis self heal.
And now based on some noob complain they boost scavenge values to match caches. But in 1v1 cashes are almost never build. Add okw cheap unit unlock to that.

The 2 models manning the weapon don't benefit from the green cover generated by the AT gun itself.

On an off topic but post related question, if for example 2/4 Brit inf squad are in green cover and 2/4 out of green cover, does the entire squad or just the individual models receive the bonuses?

On an off topic but post related question, if for example 2/4 Brit inf squad are in green cover and 2/4 out of green cover, does the entire squad or just the individual models receive the bonuses?

Every model needs its own cover. The little cover shield is just displaying the majority status of the squad. You can see this when you get behind non soviet sandbags and you engage another squad at long range and the model on the end drops very quickly. He probably just didn't fit behind the sandbags at that angle.

Every model needs its own cover. The little cover shield is just displaying the majority status of the squad. You can see this when you get behind non soviet sandbags and you engage another squad at long range and the model on the end drops very quickly. He probably just didn't fit behind the sandbags at that angle.

Thanks, I was aware of the cover mechanic on individual models, but not how it applied to offensive bonuses. I was wondering how lazy/rushed Relic had been developing the mechanic for the expansion. Seems not at all. Excellent.

the reason for OKW being obnoxious right now is the rank 2000 wehraboos whined and cried about literally every single unit allies had that was even remotely functional

game was balanced better prepatch outside of certain units on certain maps frnakly

Thanks, I was aware of the cover mechanic on individual models, but not how it applied to offensive bonuses. I was wondering how lazy/rushed Relic had been developing the mechanic for the expansion. Seems not at all. Excellent.

Ah my bad I misread the question. I actually do not 100% know the answer but I would believe once again it's applied on a model basis. So the 2 of the 4 models in cover would gain the bonus.

volks + 2 mg34 = completely shutdown on some maps.

I don't even know why they put MGs on OKW since they have the flaktrack which is a moving MG with 360 degree arc.

another thing is 10 munis for heal + self heal at vet 3 made the Medic upgrade almost useless, meaning you can get medtruck + retreat and manage to save the fuel for something else.

volks + 2 mg34 = completely shutdown on some maps.

I don't even know why they put MGs on OKW since they have the flaktrack which is a moving MG with 360 degree arc.

another thing is 10 munis for heal + self heal at vet 3 made the Medic upgrade almost useless, meaning you can get medtruck + retreat and manage to save the fuel for something else.

Because every other faction has a non doctrinal MG. The MG34 is also by far the worst in game. MG34 and FHT also have completely different roles in the game, disregarding the fact that the FHT is also not very good. It comes out at such an awkward time and can't really combat allied light vehicles which are always out about the same time it hits the field. It is also super vulnerable to AT guns because it cannot fire on the move. At least with the vet one smoke change it doesn't just die to them anymore and can actually get away. It also still loses to allied HMGs when the HMG is garrisoned in a house.

Just compare its performance to the US AA HT which can fire on the move, suppress on the move, and do decent damage vs axis light vehicles (infact it beats all of them 1v1 with the exception of the puma). Why do US need an mg when they have this half track one may ask. Why do soviets need dshka when they already have the best spammable mg in the game.

Because every other faction has a non doctrinal MG.

Could other factions have non-doctrinal super heavy tank? Of course not cuz assymetrical gameplay blablabla...

Could other factions have non-doctrinal super heavy tank? Of course not cuz assymetrical gameplay blablabla...

Sure, make the KT doctrinal and as easy to get as other non doctrinal heavies. Maybe around the same as the Pershing. That would be pretty swell.

Mgs provide a lot of support for infantry, helping you win engagements and lock down areas of the map. I don't see why that tool should be denied to OKW as opposed to all other factions. Its such a core part of gameplay, and seeing the dedicated suppression platform doesn't work well enough, why shouldnt they get that extra utility?

They already lack smoke too. No reason to gimp them any further.

As OKW I have early game dominance only if going with another OKW to punish lonely rundumbs one by one. If there's a map with buildings and you vs decent players - you are doomed before any leig or stuka comes: you simply have no power to stop allied inf horde.