OKW's early game over-dominance

This thread lol

Sigh, let's see if i can save the thread.

ALL IN ALL, i don't think it's the early game advantage that OKW has, but the mid-late game transition. Once most Volks get vet + STG which can cost effectively out-trade the opposition (not in a 1on1 unit case but the overall strength of the faction at that point).

CoH2Charts are showing some trend, same with GCS tournament. When you take out maxim, party cover and most of the BS UKF has out from the equation, you find that allies factions are on the weaker side atm, specially SU. It has been cheese by defintion since it's release. We have nerf cheese and we can see how they can't hold by themselves.
Light vehicles/tanks are not shutting down games as before, which makes games actually go into later stages. We have to nerf CalliOP, party cover, Comet/Crushwell but then what? We leave OKW untouched for another 4-6 months?
Super heavies, skill planes and Stuka dive should see adjustment/nerfs as well (which would't be as controversial for 1v1 but healthier for 2v2+). But from then on, i think more smaller changes and buffs are ought to be done.

I'd say volks are overperforming, but then I also think they are the only thing keeping OKW viable. Their vet and flame nades makes them very strong but if they are nerfed I dont think OKW will be viable because:

- in 1v1 at least their tanks are nothing spectacular
- their elite infantry hits the field late and struggles vs vetted allied infantry
- sturm openings are not viable because they have too much popcap.

OKW I'd say are fairly strong early game, but as was said earlier its map dependent. If they get a bad garrison against them they will struggle pretty hard. Also, they still have the issue of healing when not going battlegroup. Storm healing is ok but its kinda expensive and not really sustainable if you have map control.

That actually makes their early game a lot weaker, because you have the choice of not having a good light vehicle (which is a little better now seeing allied light tanks are nerfed) or clunky and limited healing.

guys guys guys. And girls ofc.

0lease stay on topic and do not blame each other. Otherwise, I fear, this thread with a good idea will have to get locked.

TLDR: You both suck, find your own room you 2. PMs exist for a reason

Sigh, let's see if i can save the thread.

ALL IN ALL, i don't think it's the early game advantage that OKW has, but the mid-late game transition. Once most Volks get vet + STG which can cost effectively out-trade the opposition (not in a 1on1 unit case but the overall strength of the faction at that point).

CoH2Charts are showing some trend, same with GCS tournament. When you take out maxim, party cover and most of the BS UKF has out from the equation, you find that allies factions are on the weaker side atm, specially SU. It has been cheese by defintion since it's release. We have nerf cheese and we can see how they can't hold by themselves.
Light vehicles/tanks are not shutting down games as before, which makes games actually go into later stages. We have to nerf CalliOP, party cover, Comet/Crushwell but then what? We leave OKW untouched for another 4-6 months?
Super heavies, skill planes and Stuka dive should see adjustment/nerfs as well (which would't be as controversial for 1v1 but healthier for 2v2+). But from then on, i think more smaller changes and buffs are ought to be done.

soviets have too much awful units, thus you end up bleeding like crazy all the time. IMO cons should be reduced to 5 man and get a rebalance. Another problem is teching, there are so many games where axis just spam infantry and support weapons and you can't rush a katuysha because of the forced T3 that cost way too fucking much.

And you're wrong.

You are wrong often

damn son, I can't possible refute all these evidence you guys presented!! :^)

another thing that is nonsense is how axis have sight advantages over allies, why pios have such long sight? Volks and pumas too, these things make axis life so much easier. I always can make informed decisions when playing since I can see much farther. while playing as Soviets I have to always jump in blind and react on time.

These are called inconsistencies... and there are many

I hope with the patchs will be eliminated

Sigh, let's see if i can save the thread.

ALL IN ALL, i don't think it's the early game advantage that OKW has, but the mid-late game transition. Once most Volks get vet + STG which can cost effectively out-trade the opposition (not in a 1on1 unit case but the overall strength of the faction at that point).

CoH2Charts are showing some trend, same with GCS tournament. When you take out maxim, party cover and most of the BS UKF has out from the equation, you find that allies factions are on the weaker side atm, specially SU. It has been cheese by defintion since it's release. We have nerf cheese and we can see how they can't hold by themselves.
Light vehicles/tanks are not shutting down games as before, which makes games actually go into later stages. We have to nerf CalliOP, party cover, Comet/Crushwell but then what? We leave OKW untouched for another 4-6 months?
Super heavies, skill planes and Stuka dive should see adjustment/nerfs as well (which would't be as controversial for 1v1 but healthier for 2v2+). But from then on, i think more smaller changes and buffs are ought to be done.

+

Sigh, let's see if i can save the thread.

ALL IN ALL, i don't think it's the early game advantage that OKW has, but the mid-late game transition. Once most Volks get vet + STG which can cost effectively out-trade the opposition (not in a 1on1 unit case but the overall strength of the faction at that point).

CoH2Charts are showing some trend, same with GCS tournament. When you take out maxim, party cover and most of the BS UKF has out from the equation, you find that allies factions are on the weaker side atm, specially SU. It has been cheese by defintion since it's release. We have nerf cheese and we can see how they can't hold by themselves.
Light vehicles/tanks are not shutting down games as before, which makes games actually go into later stages. We have to nerf CalliOP, party cover, Comet/Crushwell but then what? We leave OKW untouched for another 4-6 months?
Super heavies, skill planes and Stuka dive should see adjustment/nerfs as well (which would't be as controversial for 1v1 but healthier for 2v2+). But from then on, i think more smaller changes and buffs are ought to be done.

The coh2charts so far only display how many games have been played, not winrates. GCS is confined to "balanced" maps. Had other maps been in the pool that were allies advantageous their winrates would be much higher.

The coh2charts so far only display how many games have been played, not winrates. GCS is confined to "balanced" maps. Had other maps been in the pool that were allies advantageous their winrates would be much higher.

1-CoH2Charts does display winrates (just filter for 1v1, arranged teams or randoms) but that doesn't translates automatically to a fact for claiming that X or Y is imba. As i said before, it shows a trend. A sign something MIGHT not be right.
With the nature of CoH (low playerbase, high amount of imba skillwise matches, assymetrical faction/maps balance) it's hard to use this values but i personally consider that between +5 is practically acceptable. Anything higher than that it MIGHT mean something is not right.
NOTE: there's a thread by Siphon X which explains it better. But you have to be naive to ignore the meta matchmaking movement of people swapping factions cause "they are now more enjoyable".

High skill level balance is what matter, so GCS is in fact more important, but you need to have some kind of perspective of how the average player is doing as well.
At the moment the trend seems to be simil.

2-About maps. Problem with matchmaking is that you can't know which map you are gonna land on nor your opponents so you can't really prepare for them. On a tournament setup, you know up to some point which faction your opponent prefers, map and what commanders you can fill for that map. EVEN if a map is slightly favour for one or either side, the overall sample shouldn't be as DRASTIC for some factions.
Kholodny and Faymonville threw "balanced" average results on previous ESL cup. Crossing has always been imba and that leaves Crossroads. Do you really thing that if we threw into the mix Semoisky, Langres, Angoville or any other map the values would vary so much?


TL;DR: just in case this smells like Axis OP allies UP. It's more of: there's smoke in the horizon. It should be a GOOD idea that the scope was bigger this time. After nerfing cheese and leaving untouched some factions, it was expectable to see this kinds of results. Which doesn't mean the patch is bad, just that it shows how some factions strenght was only on it's cheese and not "proper" gameplay.

1-CoH2Charts does display winrates (just filter for 1v1, arranged teams or randoms) but that doesn't translates automatically to a fact for claiming that X or Y is imba. As i said before, it shows a trend. A sign something MIGHT not be right.
With the nature of CoH (low playerbase, high amount of imba skillwise matches, assymetrical faction/maps balance) it's hard to use this values but i personally consider that between +5 is practically acceptable. Anything higher than that it MIGHT mean something is not right.
NOTE: there's a thread by Siphon X which explains it better. But you have to be naive to ignore the meta matchmaking movement of people swapping factions cause "they are now more enjoyable".

High skill level balance is what matter, so GCS is in fact more important, but you need to have some kind of perspective of how the average player is doing as well.
At the moment the trend seems to be simil.

2-About maps. Problem with matchmaking is that you can't know which map you are gonna land on nor your opponents so you can't really prepare for them. On a tournament setup, you know up to some point which faction your opponent prefers, map and what commanders you can fill for that map. EVEN if a map is slightly favour for one or either side, the overall sample shouldn't be as DRASTIC for some factions.
Kholodny and Faymonville threw "balanced" average results on previous ESL cup. Crossing has always been imba and that leaves Crossroads. Do you really thing that if we threw into the mix Semoisky, Langres, Angoville or any other map the values would vary so much?


TL;DR: just in case this smells like Axis OP allies UP. It's more of: there's smoke in the horizon. It should be a GOOD idea that the scope was bigger this time. After nerfing cheese and leaving untouched some factions, it was expectable to see this kinds of results. Which doesn't mean the patch is bad, just that it shows how some factions strenght was only on it's cheese and not "proper" gameplay.

Your last sentence is essentially soviets. USF and brits are more or less "ok" Just the heavy reliance on crom and comets and m10 spam.

Cleaned up a bit, please stay respectful and on on-topic, people.

"one replay prove nothing!!11!!" you provided NO replays to prove that volks lose to other infantry, so I made infinite more proof than you, but I can provide 10 more replays if you want. so what you will be your next excuse? I just played a game where my guards got shit on at long range against volks.

"nades can be dodged" lol sure, you just have to move for like 3 seconds, making your dps shit and lose your cover while the volks melt you away, you are a genius!

He is right. I didnt ever take a game from him. His skills are way above avarage poster. Respect

I have experienced a full life RM on yellow cover losing or calling draw vs a full life volks no cover at mid/long range.
I have experienced a lot of situations where Volks simply beat RM on short distance due to RNG factors or simply using a grenade.
We have to be honest, voks trades very well vs most expensive infantry.

No doubt. But keep in mind that both of those are extremely RNG dependent situations. Yellow cover only affects accuracy, unlike green cover which also reduces damage. Red cover increases damage. These are the factors I was specifically referencing in my post.

Volks get STG on the field while RM need to retreat to their barrack
Volks STG is egal to RM+1 Bar, which let them trade favorably for a long period of time.
Volks get flamnade with the first truck.
Volks get MG34 support from any truck build.
Volks have Sturmpioner as support unit which let them trade even more favorably vs 2 RM/Penal/IS/Cons or whatever infantry you want.
Volks flamnade is just a reverse factor on too many situations. I understand OKW need them for clearing building and flamnade are perfectly fine for that. But on the open field, it is just an OP grenade that deny cover and let you finish your opponent with your STGs.

I am of the opinion that Volks StGs are rather problematic. I think volks should swap all their rifles for MP40s instead of or in addition to the StGs so they become an assault squad and not just Volks+. I also think it'd be appropriate for volks to have their normal grenade, and assault-package volks have the flame nade.

But at the same time, volks do get outclassed in the slot_item department nonetheless. A couple StGs are nice, but they require rifles to be rushing in with garands, not overpowering them with BARs.

I agree that the StGs should be all or nothing. Not only would it help balance volks (so that they didn't become such an excellent generalist anti-infantry unit) but it adds tactical depth because you have to manage how you use your StG volks vs your vanilla volks.

OKW are a ridiculous faction. They've had their weaknesses systematically removed while maintaining their strengths. Any nerfs they received (like removing the stupid shreck blobs) were amply compensated just in case it was a problem.

On volks specifically, they simply have far too much going for them. This is largely due to going from a cheap, not particularly good infantry (that got to on par with vet) with a highly potent close quarters sturpio squad to complement it - to all round main line infantry that can deal with almost any situation or range on their own.

For 250 MP with volks you get a capable main line squad that can be upgraded in field for 60 MP to a good at all ranges squad - incidentally this upgrade also can't be dropped or lost. It's a 5 man squad giving it decent durability and the reinforce cost isn't particularly high. You get a free vehicle snare with the faust in the bargain. Then you get to the flame nade, easily the best all round nade in the game. Clears garrisons, denies cover and handles weapons teams quite nicely. With its throw time it's near impossible to dodge as well. Then you get the vet bonuses on top of all this. End game volks can walk headlong into practically anything thanks to their vet bonuses.

Something has to go. The flame nade would be my first target. They never needed it and it made them too potent vs infantry. If they need garrison clears they have the also ridiculous ISG and one of the best close quarters units in the game to handle it.

Soviet MG Spam.

Soviet MG Spam.

Probably being patched away in the next few days.

Perhaps if stg44's were droppable it would create a soft nerf to the faction. Would have the bonus of buffing cons who get to pick them up.

OKW are a ridiculous faction. They've had their weaknesses systematically removed while maintaining their strengths. Any nerfs they received (like removing the stupid shreck blobs) were amply compensated just in case it was a problem.

On volks specifically, they simply have far too much going for them. This is largely due to going from a cheap, not particularly good infantry (that got to on par with vet) with a highly potent close quarters sturpio squad to complement it - to all round main line infantry that can deal with almost any situation or range on their own.

For 250 MP with volks you get a capable main line squad that can be upgraded in field for 60 MP to a good at all ranges squad - incidentally this upgrade also can't be dropped or lost. It's a 5 man squad giving it decent durability and the reinforce cost isn't particularly high. You get a free vehicle snare with the faust in the bargain. Then you get to the flame nade, easily the best all round nade in the game. Clears garrisons, denies cover and handles weapons teams quite nicely. With its throw time it's near impossible to dodge as well. Then you get the vet bonuses on top of all this. End game volks can walk headlong into practically anything thanks to their vet bonuses.

Something has to go. The flame nade would be my first target. They never needed it and it made them too potent vs infantry. If they need garrison clears they have the also ridiculous ISG and one of the best close quarters units in the game to handle it.

End game volks still only have a total of .81 received accuracy. I think out of any main infintry unit, this is the lowest in the game. How does that make them tough?

The flame made is ok, sure if your opponent isnt watching it'll do a bunch of damage, but a normal grenade wipes unwatched units. Also you complain about stuff it's effectiveness vs weapon teams, in what situation is that actually a big advantage?

You say stgs are a good all range weapon? In fact they increase long range dps at all, and the close range dps boost from both of them are outshone by any allied weapon upgrade. Lmg > bar > 2 stg

It's a huge advantage when dealing with anti tank guns as they have a gun shield. Flame nade negates that entirely. A regular grenade is also not a guaranteed kill against green cover short of poor grouping. While that is not ideal it sometimes helps. A flame nade forces you to move regardless.

I didn't say StGs were good at all ranges. I said the unit was good at all ranges. I believe they still have 3 kar 98's, no? Allied weapon upgrades also actually drop making double equipping a risk - especially for tommies.