GCS Balance Preview

Ok? but how is this different from Ostheer? M3 clown car rush doesn't work against Ostheer because they have the super early fausts. You don't see Ostheer getting their fausts nerfed behind their T2 building or battlephase 1. If it's because the raketen is on T0 and the pak40 is on t2 that's a rakaten issue or a pak40 issue. Is it because volks are generally more powerful than grens because of the extra man? Volks spam is one of the two only strategies you can go for as OKW which is why their fausts are so abundant. Ostheer have more options which is why this isn't an issue probably. they can get MGs, mortars, some grens, snipers, Ostruppen with doctrines. Saying that OKW fausts are to numerous early game is a poor way of saying their design sucks but we can't change it because of scope. If you want to do the munitions change to lower the usage of the faust fine but it probably won't have a large enough impact and that I agree with you on. But I still do not see a reason to allow flamecar rushes against OKW inorder to force out a raketen so OKW has 1 less fighting squad while the clown car can more or less avoid it.

The hope is that the sheer fear of the enemy rushing a light vehicle will dissuade OKW from overinvesting into the kubel-heavy openings we are starting to see as a result of WBP. That will limit OKW's early-game territory gains and, you know, maybe Soviets can have a chance.

Grenadiers cannot go toe-to-toe with the vast majority of the enemy squads. Thus, you have to make a compromise with how many support weapons you field, and how many Grenadiers (and where you place them) to prevent yourself being overrun by light cars.

With current Volks, there's really no compromise. They're amazing for their cost, so why not spam them right off the bat? This is especially after early OKW game with:
- Sturmpioneer starting squad
- Kubelwagen armour vs small arms fire
- Sturmpioneer repair speed efficiency (which allows Kubelwagens to press on and bleed squads)

Look. We've already tested this in WBP, and we've already seen this in GCS. OKW's lategame is insane. Part of the reason behind the complete insanity of OKW's lategame is the insane cost-efficiency/power of their abilities.

By upping panzerfaust we are limiting access to those OP abilities. That won't stop OKW late-game from being OP as fuck. However, it will make it be a tiny bit less OP.

It doesn't take a genius to see what needs to be changed. However, for as long as Volks and OKW lategame has the potential that it currently has, I am sure they can survive 30 munitions fausts. At least they have fausts.

Bottomline:

The only reason why we touched Panzerfaust cost was because we weren't allowed to touch any of the other OP OKW abilities.

Panzerfaust cost will be restored when the OP abilities also enter scope; not before.
End of story.

first of all why not wait for gcs to decide wether okw is op or not in some aspect(which they are not its brits and usf that are pretty broken,but maybe remove the allied bias filter then you may see it)
and which op abilites..?? zeroing arty and overwatch which is most of the time kills your own units lol

first of all why not wait for gcs to decide wether okw is op or not in some aspect(which they are not its brits and usf that are pretty broken,but maybe remove the allied bias filter then you may see it)
and which op abilites..?? zeroing arty and overwatch which is most of the time kills your own units lol

https://www.coh2.org/topic/60453/gcs-placement-match-stats-w-updates

Siphon X also has detailed stats about which units were fielded and how often.

The hope is that the sheer fear of the enemy rushing a light vehicle will dissuade OKW from overinvesting into the kubel-heavy openings we are starting to see as a result of WBP. That will limit OKW's early-game territory gains and, you know, maybe Soviets can have a chance.

Grenadiers cannot go toe-to-toe with the vast majority of the enemy squads. Thus, you have to make a compromise with how many support weapons you field, and how many Grenadiers (and where you place them) to prevent yourself being overrun by light cars.

With current Volks, there's really no compromise. They're amazing for their cost, so why not spam them right off the bat? This is especially after early OKW game with:
- Sturmpioneer starting squad
- Kubelwagen armour vs small arms fire
- Sturmpioneer repair speed efficiency (which allows Kubelwagens to press on and bleed squads)

I understand that it will dissuade OKW players from going kubel spam into fussilier spam but you have to understand that for the players who actually just get 1 kubel and 3 volks or 4 volks open they have zero defense against a flame car rush. That more or less completely breaks the ability to go for mechanized becauase you want your fausts as fast as possible. Or you go for an earlier raketen and because you have 1 less fighting squad you'll generally lose map control. Why not just make the OKW faust more expensive when no truck has been built similar to the flaktracks smoke ability at vet 0 and vet 1?

I understand that it will dissuade OKW players from going kubel spam into fussilier spam but you have to understand that for the players who actually just get 1 kubel and 3 volks or 4 volks open they have zero defense against a flame car rush. That more or less completely breaks the ability to go for mechanized becauase you want your fausts as fast as possible. Or you go for an earlier raketen and because you have 1 less fighting squad you'll generally lose map control.

The only way we can touch OKW in the patch is through their fausts. The only way we can touch Soviets in the patch is through the Maxims.

The results we have so far say that we need to tweak Soviet power with relation to OKW. Should we restore Maxim spam, or should we restore the viability of M3A1?

The scope makes no sense this time, and we feel that reintroducing faust timing is the least-frustrating way forward for both factions.

At the very least, new Soviets cannot be worse than pre-WBP Soviets due to a variety of reasons:
- Soviet vehicle nerfs
- OKW vehicle buffs
- Penal nerfs
- Guards nerfs

Thus, that early forced raketenwerfer will hurt that much less now.

The only way we can touch OKW in the patch is through their fausts. The only way we can touch Soviets in the patch is through the Maxims.

The results we have so far say that we need to tweak Soviet power with relation to OKW. Should we restore Maxim spam, or should we restore the viability of M3A1?

The scope makes no sense, and we feel that reintroducing faust timing is the least-frustrating way forward.

At the very least, new Soviets cannot be worse than pre-WBP Soviets due to a variety of reasons:
- Soviet vehicle nerfs
- OKW vehicle buffs
- Penal nerfs
- Guards nerfs

Thus, that early forced raketenwerfer will hurt that much less now.

I see the overall picture now. It's just a nerf in relation to soviets vs OKW. USF vehicles come out at about 5 mins earliest and brits don't usually go AEC anymore, if they did it's around 7-8 mins. Currently according to Siphon X Soviet winrate stands at 34% and other factions lay in the 50% range.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/60453/gcs-placement-match-stats-w-updates

I think this is the best approach you have atm. Good work.

EDIT: Why not just make the OKW faust more expensive when no truck has been built similar to the flaktracks smoke ability at vet 0 and vet 1?

EDIT: Why not just make the OKW faust more expensive when no truck has been built similar to the flaktracks smoke ability at vet 0 and vet 1?

That could be an idea. We just didn't think about it. Though, it would be a bit too convoluted to convey to new players.

The "problem" with fausts, though, is that they require 0 forward investment. You only pay the munitions if you get to use them. Otherwise you keep the munitions, and you don't need to sacrifice any AI-killing power to get them. At the same time, the Soviet player is required to put 15 fuel and some manpower on the wire, regardless of whether their rush will work.

We're also very close to release, though, and there's too little time to evaluate that. Thus, going for the devil we know seemed more appropriate.

I'm not 100% convinced T2 "healthy" openings will work well vs OKW (due to conscripts). However, if Maxim fails, there's always the fallback option of dshk/m5 quad to act as a supplement for Maxim suppression. In that case, it would be nice to know that there's at least T1 openings that can work.

Is there any need for this? I was concerned that that balance decisions were being made on the basis of short term considerations while neglecting the long term balance. I was as direct as I could have been.

sorry for that. i just like that we got a team that work on this game. we are recieving alot of patches.

and alot of people just whine.

it 5 ammo...

i play soviets 90% of time, and i think the latest patche and incoming maxim patch is hurting the most soviets, and im not whining.

i know it is good for the balance, and im waiting the next balance patches to make this game even more great.

May I ask a question; why does the M1A1 scout car cost 15 fuel, when kubel and bren carrier cost none? Is it because of the potential of troops firing from inside?

sorry for that. i just like that we got a team that work on this game. we are recieving alot of patches.

and alot of people just whine.

it 5 ammo...

i play soviets 90% of time, and i think the latest patche and incoming maxim patch is hurting the most soviets, and im not whining.

i know it is good for the balance, and im waiting the next balance patches to make this game even more great.

I hardly play soviets and even I'm trying to get conscripts buffed lol. I'd like to think that after GCS patch playing soviets is a punishment instead of having fun. Similar to OKW pre WBP.

The "problem" with fausts, though, is that they require 0 forward investment. You only pay the munitions if you get to use them. Otherwise you keep the munitions, and you don't need to sacrifice any AI-killing power to get them. At the same time, the Soviet player is required to put 15 fuel and some manpower on the wire, regardless of whether their rush will work.

I think this can be offset by the fact penal AI power is larger than volks if a T1 build is used. I can't say much about T2, but it looks like the soviets are falling into a similar problem as USF where your infantry and support weapons are locked behind different tech choices and limits your abilities. It's not a severe as USF due to the fuel cost on the USF but is still prominent. Regardless I think a 40 munitions faust pre truck would be enough for 1 faust to keep an M3 back, and maybe you'd get a 2nd faust depending on territory. This is also an issue because people love how they can just throw a flamer in the back of a halftrack and due to it's AoE power and ability to hit targets in range 100% of the time combined with the speed of the halftrack just make for a similar situation to the pre nerf T70. If you're out of position you retreat and start building another squad of whatever was out of position, because you can guarantee that squad is dead. If you put penals into a half track and use it similar to light vehicles kiting snares they still do decent damage while the halftrack tanks the damage with its armor and HP pool. This obviously would be different than the flamercar but is a possible meta alternate.

A small aside the ATnades SOV cost 25 fuel

if OKW seem to be over-performing or units that are too cost efficient, why not bring back the OKW resource penalty? >.> kinda miss that unnique feature

A small aside the ATnades SOV cost 25 fuel

Yeah for that cost I always felt they should get Molotovs and AT nades, just like how US gets both Smoke and Frags for 25 fuel.

if OKW seem to be over-performing or units that are too cost efficient, why not bring back the OKW resource penalty? >.> kinda miss that unnique feature

Yep, okw was generally much better design and ballance wise before the unfortunate 'redesign'. Sadly, there is probably no coming back after so many patches.

Earlier pzfaust was for me best change in WBP.
Now with that being reverted, welcome back M3 rush.

Plus I'm not quite sure how you want to affect kubel spam by such change.
I mean, making pzfaust more expensive and coming later, kubel spam will be even more useful than going for Volks since they can stand against M3 without bleed, while Volks without pzfaust will bleed like a hell.

sorry for that. i just like that we got a team that work on this game. we are recieving alot of patches.

and alot of people just whine.

it 5 ammo...

i play soviets 90% of time, and i think the latest patche and incoming maxim patch is hurting the most soviets, and im not whining.

i know it is good for the balance, and im waiting the next balance patches to make this game even more great.

No worries .

Yeah a lot of the changes made by the balance team were great changes, but since they were not allowed patch the game as a whole, inevitably the stuff they couldn't touch is having the greatest impact on balance (ie OKW cheese, call in meta etc). The issue is constrictions being placed on the balance team.

But on the bright side, they're getting things done, could you imagine balance without the balance team?

Earlier pzfaust was for me best change in WBP.
Now with that being reverted, welcome back M3 rush.

Plus I'm not quite sure how you want to affect kubel spam by such change.
I mean, making pzfaust more expensive and coming later, kubel spam will be even more useful than going for Volks since they can stand against M3 without bleed, while Volks without pzfaust will bleed like a hell.

5/10 fuel cost kubel would have probably solve the issue the same way.

Note that, unless we did something wrong, v1.3 is meant to be the final version of the mod. If you guys can get some games going let us know how the Maxim feels, etc.

We require timely feedback.



The thing is that early OKW faust was meant to come at the same time as the other light-vehicle changes that we wanted to introduce in WBP. With the early faust, OKW could feel confident spitting out Volksgrenadiers (without having to worry about pesky rakketens) rendering light vehicles (minus M20) completely useless vs OKW. This left the way wide-open for Kubelwagons.

I know that reverting the faust seems completely lame, since it makes MechHQ starts even less appealing than before. However that's the only thing we were allowed to touch from OKW (which, somehow, completely dodged infantry scaling changes in WBP, and then managed to get through GCS with the overwhelming majority of its cheese untouched). The choice was between making MechHQ less appealing, or keep light-vehicles completely unviable.

This change is meant to be interpreted side-by-side with the overall changes to Brits and, especially, Soviets.

How is m20 useless vs volks with fausts? It just kites at 30 range and picks off models. Isn't that how it's meant to be used?

May I ask a question; why does the M1A1 scout car cost 15 fuel, when kubel and bren carrier cost none? Is it because of the potential of troops firing from inside?

YEP and it having more armor/firepower.

snip clowncar car differences between OH/OKW

There are other major differences.
-Grens been a 4man squad, means that you can probably kite the Gren (if alone) a bit and then just rush forward with your flamer since even if he manages to land a faust, you can repair and have a chance of killing it. Against a 5 Volk squad, that's not the case.
-The first munition expenditures are key for OH. Flamer/Sweeper/Medics/Mine/LMG.
-The sole fact that you have the POSSIBILITY of an AT gun (and cloaked) at T0 makes you have to measure the risk.
-A relative cheap hardcounter followed up of a 222. For OKW a medic HQ means no offensive counter and Mechanise takes even longer.
-PIO vs SP opening

Now with that being reverted, welcome back M3 rush.

Answering some of the concerns of the previous quote, i don't see it really been an issue.
Way back before it was even harder to deal with (no faust, even crappier rak and you had to wait till 90muni for a single schreck).

The danger of the M3 is the engineer flamer not the M3 alone (which can be dealt with cover + SP dps). Around 60muni don't be stupid and lone capping deep into the map. A flamer also means he either has to spend more muni/mp later for another engineer if he wants to sweep your mines. USE them, not just nade/STG rush.
There's no more OP penals flamers, there's no more OP Guards. You are eventually outscaling him. Don't try, again, to cap the whole map. If you don't get a kill on the Kubel + a wipe on a squad at the time he deploys a truck, the M3 ends up been dead-weight later on.

KEY THOUGHT HERE: you don't need to kill the M3, which means you dont NECESSARILY need to go for a rak. The M3 eventually dies on it's own. You have to not get squad wiped on retreat.

How is m20 useless vs volks with fausts? It just kites at 30 range and picks off models. Isn't that how it's meant to be used?

Cause it's not the most cost effective tool to deal with them for the amount of effort it requires. Against OH it's 4 models and the tool to deal with a sniper. The M20 was more useful against the old OKW which had schrecks, cause you could push around the model with the AT. You can't do it against a snare.
Get it if you need to deal with Kubels and you want mines.

On the bright side, I think the fact that everyone is obsessing over the Faust change and nothing else speaks to how generally non-controversial the other changes are - so *thumbs up* (Maxim might take some getting used to but it doesn't seem bad by my estimation)