July 30th Patch
31 Jul 2013, 14:33 PM
#161
4 
Posts: 951
PAKs only seem to work if they are spammed. If I can get two out and deploy them simultaneously, they are okay. If I don't, the get flanked and the T70 is a horrible little bastard to hit.
31 Jul 2013, 14:35 PM
#162
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
there's no moving target modifiers, as he stated. If you roll a hit you get a hit.
Thats calculated against the movement speed of the vehicle in relation to the projectiles speed. It may be that PIV and PaKs projectile is too slow, in relation to the speed of the T70, especially now that PIVs scatter was increased +50%.
The T-70 target size is very small, 14 in fact making the chance to hit at max rage 35%. If your vehicle is moving you suffer a 50% accuracy reduction, resulting in an even lower chance of 17.5%
Resulting in the T70 being very difficult to hit.
The PIV wasnt taking any damage from his AT gun because it was a friendly unit as he stated.
It was not being HIT. Dmg not the issue. Being hit, is.
I specifically said "hit", not damage.
31 Jul 2013, 14:38 PM
#163
15 
Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2
it's not hitting because it's a friendly target
31 Jul 2013, 14:38 PM
#164
Posts: 255
you missed a few things. there's no moving target modifiers, as he stated. If you roll a hit you get a hit. The T-70 target size is very small, 14 in fact making the chance to hit at max rage 35%. If your vehicle is moving you suffer a 50% accuracy reduction, resulting in an even lower chance of 17.5%
The PIV wasnt taking any damage from his AT gun because it was a friendly unit as he stated.
Cool, this confirms that the T70 and Stug now have the same target sizes. Wonder if it will be noticeable when SU85 fights a Stug...
31 Jul 2013, 14:41 PM
#165
Posts: 2425
Permanently Bannedit's not hitting because it's a friendly target
It was an "Attack Ground" command. Meaning it fires at that spot, and "hits" intervening armor if the shell would otherwise land in the scatter area to the rear of the vehicle, away from the PaK.
Nor do PaK's not hit friendly targets.
All of us have seen units die to PaK friendly fire.
Saw Fatal blow up his own FHT the other night with a PaK positioned behind it.
31 Jul 2013, 14:46 PM
#166
15 Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2
I should clarify that the vehicle that is shooting gets a 50% accuracy penalty if it is moving, just like bolt action rifles on infantry. If the target is moving it doesn't matter. Hits are determined by range x unit size, where max is 0.025 and minimum is 0.05
With regards to the SU-85 vs stug, don't forget you are engaging at 50 so the accuracy of the SU-85 will be a bit higher than 0.025 and I'm too lazy to work out the lerp adjustment
With regards to the SU-85 vs stug, don't forget you are engaging at 50 so the accuracy of the SU-85 will be a bit higher than 0.025 and I'm too lazy to work out the lerp adjustment
31 Jul 2013, 14:47 PM
#167
Posts: 187
If a T-70 can flank your Pak without getting fausted by grens, you're not supporting it or being too aggressive with it.
Even if it manages to de-crew the Pak, it should be reasonably deep in enemy territory where it can be disabled, the Pak re-crewed, and the T-70 taken out.
Even if it manages to de-crew the Pak, it should be reasonably deep in enemy territory where it can be disabled, the Pak re-crewed, and the T-70 taken out.
31 Jul 2013, 14:49 PM
#168
15 
Posts: 786
It was an "Attack Ground" command. Meaning it fires at that spot, and "hits" intervening armor if the shell would otherwise land in the scatter area to the rear of the vehicle, away from the PaK.
Nor do PaK's not hit friendly targets.
All of us have seen units die to PaK friendly fire.
Saw Fatal blow up his own FHT the other night with a PaK positioned behind it.
The dev says "it won't take the hit", so it won't take the hit.
Let me explain you the video since you seem not to understand:
there's NO WAY a shell can land behind a tank, therefore the change in scatter DISTANCE (firing shorter or longer in the same straight line) only makes shorter shot miss tanks.
T70 gets missed because it's small, and that makes it hard to direct hit.
It's speed has nothing to do with the chance of landing a direct hit.
If you don't land a direct hit higher scatter is better vs moving targets, lower scatter is better vs stationary targets
so, basically, the changes in the patch have no effect in P4vsT70 matchups
31 Jul 2013, 14:58 PM
#169
Posts: 176
Not to feed the flames but if low scatter results in higher accuracy (Such as 1 on the Brumbar) i wonder how efficient attack ground on SU-85s against Infantry is.
31 Jul 2013, 15:07 PM
#170
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedThen why is PaK accuracy terrible?
31 Jul 2013, 15:16 PM
#171
15 Posts: 786
Then why is PaK accuracy terrible?
there's no such thing as accuracy. units don't have an accuracy stat. hit chance is distance*size. end of story.
31 Jul 2013, 15:20 PM
#172
2 
Posts: 2181
It may not be named "accuracy" but there is defenitely a stat that behaves like it. They are considering making the pak more accurate at range so there is def a stat for it
31 Jul 2013, 15:21 PM
#173
Posts: 391
Weapons have accuracy stats though, mainly to do with cover, but they are there.
31 Jul 2013, 15:27 PM
#174
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
there's no such thing as accuracy. units don't have an accuracy stat. hit chance is distance*size. end of story.
I will rephrase the question:
How come PaK can't hit jack shit?
31 Jul 2013, 15:40 PM
#175
Posts: 101
People keep complaining about the PaK, but the ZiS isn't any better. My grandma could reload the thing faster than that. Its main usefulness comes in that rockin' barrage ability, expensive though it may be. I think AT guns in general need to improve. Then you can nerf the SU-85 some and see more of a dynamic like the Americans in vCoH.
31 Jul 2013, 15:41 PM
#176
Posts: 1164
there's no such thing as accuracy. units don't have an accuracy stat. hit chance is distance*size. end of story.
"units" don't have accuracy stats. because there are no "units" in the game.
only squads and entities. and entities have weapons. and weapons have near and far accuracy.
Not to feed the flames but if low scatter results in higher accuracy (Such as 1 on the Brumbar) i wonder how efficient attack ground on SU-85s against Infantry is.
as for ground attack for anti-infantry:
just like with the StuH in CoH1, ground attack can often be "better" than targeting a specific entity in a squad (for example if your tank is trying to shoot the one lonely guy of a squad that is chilling out in the middle of nowhere, while the rest of his mates are clumped up on top of each other).
remember though that ground attack is almost always a "miss", while attacking a unit always has a certain percent chance to actually hit an entity (even if it might be low).
31 Jul 2013, 15:53 PM
#177
Posts: 2779
People keep complaining about the PaK, but the ZiS isn't any better. My grandma could reload the thing faster than that. Its main usefulness comes in that rockin' barrage ability, expensive though it may be. I think AT guns in general need to improve. Then you can nerf the SU-85 some and see more of a dynamic like the Americans in vCoH.
I doubt your grandma can pick up one load of Zis-3 round
31 Jul 2013, 16:52 PM
#178
Posts: 21
WAIT a minute, so your telling me there is such a thing as a win button? Where do I sign up? (Mind officially blown)
Posts: 267 | Subs: 8
OK, let me clarify a few things based on some of the questions that have popped up.
First, there is accuracy in the game. Accuracy on all tanks is a value between 2.5% and 5%. The actual accuracy value being used in the current hit calculation is determined based on how far your target is from your position. So if your target is at max range, you will use a 2.5% accuracy modifier. If your target is half in between your max and min range, you will use 3.75%.
This accuracy value is then multiplied by 0.5 if you are moving. That value is then multiplied by the target size which leads to your chance to hit.
If a shot hits, nothing will stop it from hitting its target and dealing damage. If your shot misses, then there is still a chance for it to collide into enemy or neutral objects. If this happens, damage is dealt.
Friendly units cannot collide with friendly projectiles. Damage is only dealt to friendly units if the shot hits close enough to splash onto friendly targets.
@Nullist; only the T34-85 was affected by the scatter distance changes.
First, there is accuracy in the game. Accuracy on all tanks is a value between 2.5% and 5%. The actual accuracy value being used in the current hit calculation is determined based on how far your target is from your position. So if your target is at max range, you will use a 2.5% accuracy modifier. If your target is half in between your max and min range, you will use 3.75%.
This accuracy value is then multiplied by 0.5 if you are moving. That value is then multiplied by the target size which leads to your chance to hit.
If a shot hits, nothing will stop it from hitting its target and dealing damage. If your shot misses, then there is still a chance for it to collide into enemy or neutral objects. If this happens, damage is dealt.
Friendly units cannot collide with friendly projectiles. Damage is only dealt to friendly units if the shot hits close enough to splash onto friendly targets.
@Nullist; only the T34-85 was affected by the scatter distance changes.
31 Jul 2013, 17:42 PM
#180
Posts: 99
A smart suggestion made earlier (forgot who) about how to fix the P4 if the Dev's wont revert the scatter nerf: Buff the MG upgrade across all tanks. And don't just give it the placebo effect of "increased suppression" (which is so weak it's not useful). It needs to kill. Give it either a big accuracy boost, a rate of fire increase, or DMG increase, or some mix of the three. It's the smartest solution. It would help with the Stug as well.
The German meta is heavy T1/T2 mix, skip T3 entirely, hold out for T4. Right now, the SU-85 makes the entire T3 building obsolete. Pre-patch, T3 building was useful only because the P4 could adequately deal with the soviet hoards and, unlike the Ostwind, potentially dispatch an Su85 (potentially). While the P4 is still able to potentially dispatch an Su85 it can't/isn't handling infantry worth a damn.
Anyone doing the risk/reward math sees there's no reason to build T3 building in the current state.
The German meta is heavy T1/T2 mix, skip T3 entirely, hold out for T4. Right now, the SU-85 makes the entire T3 building obsolete. Pre-patch, T3 building was useful only because the P4 could adequately deal with the soviet hoards and, unlike the Ostwind, potentially dispatch an Su85 (potentially). While the P4 is still able to potentially dispatch an Su85 it can't/isn't handling infantry worth a damn.
Anyone doing the risk/reward math sees there's no reason to build T3 building in the current state.
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