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Ostheer infantry scaling

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Vipper
7 Mar 2017, 21:13 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2017, 19:30 PM__deleted__

...
You are goddamn incorrect, my friend. Most of DPS in 4 member squad (except pgrens) lies in their LMG.
Grenadier lmg42 damage is equal to other 3 members damage and obers lmg is far better than all 3 rifles together.
...

That is partially correct because it only is right at range 30-35. By range 20 the 3 rifles have better DPS than the Lmg.

It is correct thou that squad with weapon upgrades tend to lose less DPS when losing models with the exception probably of vet 1 Penal/assault Guards due to last man standing.
:)
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Outsider_Sidaroth
7 Mar 2017, 21:56 PM
#42
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2017, 19:30 PM__deleted__



You are goddamn incorrect, my friend. Most of DPS in 4 member squad (except pgrens) lies in their LMG.

Grenadier lmg42 damage is equal to other 3 members damage and obers lmg is far better than all 3 rifles together.

No matter what model you lose, lmg will be always there. This means that your squad can never have less than ~50% of MAX DPS because 50% of squad DPS lies in lmg (or even more in obers lmg).

Also lmg is far better than rifles because it targets single model, killing it and decreasing enemy DPS constantly. Rifles can fire at 5 different models at once, not hurting his DPS at all.





This kind of post makes LMG Paras sound really good, legit.
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Storm Elite
8 Mar 2017, 00:50 AM
#43
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2017, 19:30 PM__deleted__

You are goddamn incorrect, my friend. Most of DPS in 4 member squad (except pgrens) lies in their LMG.

Grenadier lmg42 damage is equal to other 3 members damage and obers lmg is far better than all 3 rifles together.

No matter what model you lose, lmg will be always there. This means that your squad can never have less than ~50% of MAX DPS because 50% of squad DPS lies in lmg (or even more in obers lmg).

Also lmg is far better than rifles because it targets single model, killing it and decreasing enemy DPS constantly. Rifles can fire at 5 different models at once, not hurting his DPS at all.

You do realize Grenadiers and Obers don't come with upgraded weapons by default, right...?

And that you don't design units based on their upgrades?

In their default, zero vet, unupgraded states, 4-man squads such as Grenadiers have NO CHANCE against 5-man and 6-man squads, especially USF Riflemen. They lose a quarter of their DPS immediately upon engaging due to losing a model instantly, and that in turn also makes them that much easier to wipe right off the bat with direct fire (this isn't about explosive damage).

Four model squads simply aren't viable. It's an inherent, baked-in disadvantage, and a huge one at that.
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ZombiFrancis
8 Mar 2017, 04:48 AM
#44
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2017, 19:30 PM__deleted__
You are goddamn incorrect, my friend. Most of DPS in 4 member squad (except pgrens) lies in their LMG.

Grens and Obersoldaten are the only LMG squads the Axis have. G43s and Infrared StGs shouldn't just be discounted. Also, there's a very crucial part of the game that exists before Battle Phase 2 that grens operate in. Also, IAllied LMGs will often be tearing through OKW before Obers hit the field.
No matter what model you lose, lmg will be always there. This means that your squad can never have less than ~50% of MAX DPS because 50% of squad DPS lies in lmg (or even more in obers lmg).

Which means the bigger LMG squad wins. Four man squads lose by default under this condition. :lol:
Also lmg is far better than rifles because it targets single model, killing it and decreasing enemy DPS constantly. Rifles can fire at 5 different models at once, not hurting his DPS at all.

They can also fire at one model. This is the cause of much inconsistency in infantry combat.

I really don't think 4 man squads are fundamentally flawed, but I think LMGs and SMGs are a bit too prominent and powerful in this game. The power and availability of indirect fire is another huge factor.

I feel like the mechanics of LMGs and other weapons like mortar shell AoE and tank guns v infantry are worth more attention than squad size.
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ullumulu
8 Mar 2017, 07:16 AM
#45
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the 4model Squad has the following disadvantage:

- u can´t take teamweapon if lost a single model
- u must often retreat if lost a single model, else u lost on retreat the whole squad (say hello to bofors/ light alli tanks which snipes single models...even on retreat)
- u lose often whole squads by the a first arty/mortar/tank shell
- even in a 1on1 vs IS/rifles/penals u lose the first model going into green cover...the next model in under 6sec....u must retreat...and killed maybe 1 model
- since the game is full of arty...(much more on alli side) u cant stay in green cover and use ur advantage from it...u must move...a dead for 4model squad which is under fire from dual wielding alli troops...
- all allie tanks have a better AI than compareabel german tanks (AEC vs puma, crushwell vs p4, comet vs panther, luchs vs t70, kubel vs brits transporter, etc etc)
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Bohewulf
8 Mar 2017, 07:22 AM
#46
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 07:16 AMullumulu
the 4model Squad has the following disadvantage:

- u can´t take teamweapon if lost a single model
- u must often retreat if lost a single model, else u lost on retreat the whole squad (say hello to bofors/ light alli tanks which snipes single models...even on retreat)
- u lose often whole squads by the a first arty/mortar/tank shell
- even in a 1on1 vs IS/rifles/penals u lose the first model going into green cover...the next model in under 6sec....u must retreat...and killed maybe 1 model
- since the game is full of arty...(much more on alli side) u cant stay in green cover and use ur advantage from it...u must move...a dead for 4model squad which is under fire from dual wielding alli troops...
- all allie tanks have a better AI than compareabel german tanks (AEC vs puma, crushwell vs p4, comet vs panther, luchs vs t70, kubel vs brits transporter, etc etc)



I have just another disadvantage:

4-man squads can take one mine, 5/6-man sqauds can take two. 100% perforamnce difference in that regard.
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ullumulu
8 Mar 2017, 07:38 AM
#47
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 07:22 AMBohewulf



I have just another disadvantage:

4-man squads can take one mine, 5/6-man sqauds can take two. 100% perforamnce difference in that regard.


thats a right thing...there are many other i think.

or maybe: all say that penals must be strong casue the are expansive.

but if u calc:
a 5model volks squad cost 250MP = 50MP/ model
a 6model penal squad cost 300MP = 50MP/model
a 4model falls squad cost 440MO = 110MP/ model


but penals can (in most cases easily) win vs grens/volks/obers/falls
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Storm Elite
8 Mar 2017, 07:55 AM
#48
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Then you add all the other objectively incorrect game design, such as Ostheer having an "armored" car that isn't actually armored, and the entire Ostheer faction has not been viable since the release of Western Front TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO.

CoH2 is a farce, and Relic have been buffing Ostheer and OKW for YEARS now, one critical issue fixed at a time, and it's STILL not enough because of just how utterly incorrect their design of the Western Fronts factions was and how completely it broke the game.

People always obsess over balance. "Balanced this", "unbalanced that."

But CoH2 suffers from fundamental game design failure, not just balance issues, which are present in every online multiplayer game.

And it's clear that SEGA isn't interested in funneling any more resources into the game's development, nor firing and replacing the failures responsible for this kind of complete cancer.
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Iri
8 Mar 2017, 08:04 AM
#49
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..we can be unsatisfied with unbalance all we want, but true is, that this game is unique and i like its mechanism no matter what. Even its not perfect (it never is) we should be glad, that IT IS ;-)
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__deleted__
8 Mar 2017, 12:34 PM
#50
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2017, 21:56 PMOutsider_Sidaroth



This kind of post makes LMG Paras sound really good, legit.


As unit both lmg and thompson paras are great unit, one of best that USF is be able to field in WBP. The problem is their rather bad doctrine compared to payed commaders like OPershing or CalliOP.

At least double lmg rifles will exting, giving room to this unit.

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 00:50 AMStorm Elite

You do realize Grenadiers and Obers don't come with upgraded weapons by default, right...?

And that you don't design units based on their upgrades?

In their default, zero vet, unupgraded states, 4-man squads such as Grenadiers have NO CHANCE against 5-man and 6-man squads, especially USF Riflemen. They lose a quarter of their DPS immediately upon engaging due to losing a model instantly, and that in turn also makes them that much easier to wipe right off the bat with direct fire (this isn't about explosive damage).

Four model squads simply aren't viable. It's an inherent, baked-in disadvantage, and a huge one at that.


Grens-cons match up is equad. Both have thier ranges where they can win. USF rifles cost more than grens so they must be better. But they are only better at close-mid range, giving OST advantage at long range in cover.

In early game when you have non lmg grens then there are mostly no explosives they can fear. OST has HMG to counter riflemen, grens are support squad. The same apply against UKf, except you change hmg for sniper.

Later on, once grens hit vet3 (and they hit it quite fast because they are figting more valuable targets), they will stat beating rifles, as long as you keep numbers and range advantage.

Btw who is playing with unupgraded obers ? :snfPeter:


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ullumulu
8 Mar 2017, 12:41 PM
#51
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 12:34 PM__deleted__


USF rifles cost more than grens so they must be better. But they are only better at close-mid range, giving OST advantage at long range in cover.




last time i check the cost from a rifles...they cost 280MP for a 5model Squad. 280/5 = 56Mp pro model
Grens cost 240MP for a 4Model Squad. 240/4 = 60Mp pro model


Sooo...when if i calc right....they grens cost more than rifles.

Did i forgget anything?
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__deleted__
8 Mar 2017, 12:46 PM
#52
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 12:41 PMullumulu


last time i check the cost from a rifles...they cost 280MP for a 5model Squad. 280/5 = 56Mp pro model
Grens cost 240MP for a 4Model Squad. 240/4 = 60Mp pro model


Sooo...when if i calc right....they grens cost more than rifles.

Did i forgget anything?


You cannot calculate it per models. It means nothing, because they have different DPS per model, if they had same DPS you can calculate it per models, because both gren and riflemen models would be the same.

All you can calculate is cost difference between rifles and grens. rifles cost 40 mp more than grens and that is 1/6 of grenadier squad cost. So 7 grenadiers should be on equal terms with 6 rifles. And even then if grens didn´t better than rifles as the game drags on or having equal lategame per factions or having equal team weapons

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ullumulu
8 Mar 2017, 12:50 PM
#53
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yeah...than give ost a model more..and bring down their dmg per model. fixed.

the 4model squad is a huge disadvantage in the time from huge arti präsenz and lights which wipe easy squads and u need 3 model to take teamweapons
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Vipper
8 Mar 2017, 13:00 PM
#54
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 12:46 PM__deleted__

...
You cannot calculate it per models. It means nothing, because they have different DPS per model, if they had same DPS you can calculate it per models, because both gren and riflemen models would be the same.
...

The XP that one gains is related to XP value and the damage done. In the case of infantries it is the XP value of the individual model (if I am not mistaken manpower cost of squad/number of enttiites). Killing a riflemen entity gives you 56 XP while killing a grenadier entity 60.

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 12:46 PM__deleted__

...
Grens-cons match up is equad. Both have thier ranges where they can win. USF rifles cost more than grens so they must be better. But they are only better at close-mid range, giving OST advantage at long range in cover.
...


Riflemen vs Grenadiers heavy cover long range is about even. Grenadier do not have an advantage.
:)
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elchino7
8 Mar 2017, 13:53 PM
#55
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 07:38 AMullumulu

but if u calc:
a 5model volks squad cost 250MP = 50MP/ model
a 6model penal squad cost 300MP = 50MP/model
a 4model falls squad cost 440MO = 110MP/ model


I'm not gonna analyse the performance of those squads, but mind you that this is not the correct way to look at their "reinforcement cost".

General rule of thumb:
-most units reinforce for 50% of the cost per model.
-The cost of call in units doesn't correlate all the time to the actual VALUE of the unit. This applies to some tanks and mostly infiltration infantry.

For ex:
Falls cost 440MP to call in, but their value is 380mp. AND they reinforce for 40%, same thing happens to PG.

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Mr.Smith
8 Mar 2017, 14:14 PM
#56
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 13:00 PMVipper

The XP that one gains is related to XP value and the damage done. In the case of infantries it is the XP value of the individual model (if I am not mistaken manpower cost of squad/number of enttiites). Killing a riflemen entity gives you 56 XP while killing a grenadier entity 60.


The formula for XP awarded only takes Vet0 performance into account. For each vet level, the entity awards 20% more XP, regardless of how well the entity scales. Vet0 Grenadiers are no laughing matter vs Vet0 infantry.

This is also another reason why Ostruppen are such a superior defensive infantry, when they only award like 32XP per model dropped.

Post WBP, the only units that will escape that formula (i.e., will award 25% more XP than what their reinforcement cost implies) will be:
- Tommies
- PGrens
- Obers
- Sturmpioneers

Ideally entity models should award XP proportionally to how well they vet. 70XP for a vet0 Tommy model is more than fair, considering their Vet0 performance. 120XP for a Vet3 Tommy is pushing it.
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ZombiFrancis
8 Mar 2017, 14:54 PM
#57
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 12:34 PM__deleted__

Grens-cons match up is equad. Both have thier ranges where they can win.


Actually they don't. They are wildly inconsistent. They equalize with Grens in most cases, and the fact that they can build their own green cover really helps them out. Surprisingly conscripts don't always win at close range either. The trend is certainly that Grens win at long range and Cons at close range but it's highly unpredictable and unreliable.

But most people take the majority of their damage moving around in red/open cover instead of fighting at distances in cover. That's what decides most engagements. But actually Conscripts are surprisingly good at max range in cover compared to fighting on top of Grens. But that shouldn't be news to anyone: units in cover are far superior to moving units not in cover.

Conscripts pretty reliably lose to Volks at all ranges in all forms of cover and out. Helps explain why maxim spam is so preferable.
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Outsider_Sidaroth
8 Mar 2017, 14:55 PM
#58
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 14:54 PMZombiFrancis


Actually they don't. They are wildly inconsistent. They equalize with Grens in most cases, and the fact that they can build their own green cover really helps them out. Surprisingly conscripts don't always win at close range either. The trend is certainly that Grens win at long range and Cons at close range but it's highly unpredictable and unreliable.

But most people take the majority of their damage moving around in red/open cover instead of fighting at distances in cover. That's what decides most engagements. But actually Conscripts are surprisingly good at max range in cover compared to fighting on top of Grens. But that shouldn't be news to anyone: units in cover are far superior to moving units not in cover.

Conscripts pretty reliably lose to Volks at all ranges in all forms of cover and out. Helps explain why maxim spam is so preferable.


Cons are also very prone to feeding the enemy veterancy, which is something you don't want vs Prokw.
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Vipper
8 Mar 2017, 15:19 PM
#59
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2017, 14:14 PMMr.Smith

...
Ideally entity models should award XP proportionally to how well they vet. 70XP for a vet0 Tommy model is more than fair, considering their Vet0 performance. 120XP for a Vet3 Tommy is pushing it.
...


Well I find the 100 XP for a single ober model at vet 0 or the 200 for a vet 5 model more problematic. Or the 95 for a Fall vet 0 or the 190 for vet 5.

Anyway, my point, was that the argument that axis infantry gain veterancy faster because they fighting more expensive squads holds little water.
:)
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Tobis
8 Mar 2017, 16:16 PM
#60
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The misinformation and theory crafting in this thread is disgusting.

Veterancy awarded and squad value follow the same formula for 90% of the squads in the game. Dividing the manpower cost of the squad by the number of models and acting like this is a useful metric is moronic. If you want to compare squad values you only need to look at manpower cost, that's what you are actually paying. Looking at single model performance/price is ridiculous when the squads have different numbers of models.

Grens don't need another model. Not every faction needs to be identical with 5 man squads. There was no problem with the 4 man squads until WFA released, which means the squad size isn't the problem, the new factions are. 4 man squads are a drawback, learn to deal with it. It adds uniqueness to the faction and requires a different playstyle. Ostheer is underperforming but we don't need to bastardize the faction to fix it.
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