Arguments against possible upcoming OKW/UKF nerfs

Jesus you do like to cry don't you

A stellar rebuttal with irrefutable logic and reasoning. Clearly, my arguments are now refuted.

...who in blue blazes is complaining about Volksgrenadier veterancy?! WHO?!

Volksgrenadiers DO NOT DO DAMAGE.

They are effectively an Ostheer Pioneer squad with more health.
No damage at max range. No damage at mid range. No damage at close range.
Volksgrenadiers are not a unit in the game Company of Heroes 2. They're a terrain decoration.

[...]

Cons disagree with you.

Dirt cheap (60 muni) non-doc upgrade with no unlock cost that improves mid and close range damage, while not hampering it on long range fixes that easily.

As well as no-unlock-cost faust, flame nade and doctrinal dirt cheap infil nade which are left in such state from times when OKW had muni penalty and resource conversion.

OKW have its problems, but IMO damage (and generally scaling) of volks squad is not one of them.

Please keep it on topic gents.

I think the poll needs a question at the start:

What do you play?

1.UKF
2.OKW
3.Both!
4.Neither

So we can get an idea of the demographics and biases of the voters.
I'd just like to note how JackDickolson refuting people's notions of OP UKF and OKW mechanics was skewed. I mean no disrespect to his analysis. I think he summed it up well. But in talking about why UKF is not OP and suggesting a few minor balance tweaks (which I think are reasonable), he is required by the community to spend more time justifying the statement. Saying OKW is not OP required a quick TL;DR.

What I'm getting at is that the Axis only players are far more vocal at the moment about the allies being OP than the other way around. On a poll like this it is probably more likely that an Axis only player will respond than an Allies only.

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As a UKF player myself, I agree that the OKW units aren't OP... and that's because I know how to play the hard-counters. With a little game knowledge you can adjust your build and play style mid game to deal with a new threat. That's what the game is about.

For my UKF players:
-If you're coming up against vet 5 squads, use suppression and artillery... they bleed the same.

-If you're facing off a King Tiger, Long range AT works well, but be ready to flank with armour if it over extends!

-The Sturm Tiger takes a while to reload, understand how long it takes and be more careful with your infantry when you think it's loaded. Long range AT can push it back, again, the best way is a good flanking!

-Jaeger Light Infantry can be outshot from green cover at any range by a double bren infantry section. MG's will still suppress them and indirect will still kill them. They aren't the boogey monster.

And my OKW friends:
-The emplacements have one MAJOR weakness... They are static! We can't move them! You don't need vision to shell them from the fog of war if you know where they are. Make us brace them then move in with flame units when they unbrace, they will die in 10 seconds. Indirect fire is the way to go against Bofors, since our ability to shoot back is limited. If we're spamming emplacements, get double Stukas out ASAP.

-The Centaur is our late game answer to your late game infantry. Retreat your squads and get some AT zero'd on it and it will go down reasonably quickly.

-The AEC is our counter for early bunker spam and early light vehicles. It IS too good against infantry at the moment, I agree with the winter balance patch turning it into a more specialised AT vehicle, like the Puma. It doesn't have much health though, hit it with a Pak and we'll either have to pull it back or lose it.

It tires me how many complaints of OP units come from players that don't know how to choose the right hardcounter and micro it well. There are too many players that go into games intending to cheese something about the faction they worship, and don't know how to use half the other units available to them.

To be frank, if you're getting smashed by something your opponent has, your first thought should be: How can I play against that better? What do I need to change about my strategy? How can I improve my ability at the game?
NOT
OMG THIS SHIT IS BS SO OP IT NEEDS A NERRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFF.

If, after analysis and reflection you conclude that there is a an objective edge your opponent receives that you do not, or do not have an effective means of countering, then you can bring it up.

Too many players assume fault lies with the game and not with them. Learn the enemy's weakness, learn your units, play the hard-counters.

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  0

  VS

  [BRN]Elite Sardaukar [BRN] Pshyco [BRN]Aronin

  mfrilander ╬KOW╬Stoßtruppen ╬KOW╬ Muffin man

  Salty Axis

  by: Aronin map: Rzhev

  2

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I agree with what @Aronin said. (I don't know how to quote, I don't post here often, mainly lurk)

I think a lot of this comes down to an l2p issue for Allied players. I agree, as someone who plays OKW more than any other faction, they can use some tweaks, like making the MG-34 better, giving the leIG 18 smoke rounds and maybe bring back hollow charge, but other than that the faction has already been hit with so much it doesn't need anything more.

Yes, emplacements are annoying, but I think for many people who scream about nerfs need to learn some better tactics. That is what after action reviews are for (AARs), aren't they?

I think the mod team for the WBP has done some absolutely amazing work, and I like the fact they are listening to the player base. I also think it would help to look at things with a cold objectivity a little more, and to not cater to the people who's problem is they are bad players.


At first I thought UKF was a tremendously overpowered faction, but after playing against it so much, like with the other factions, it has its fair share of things that can be exploited to make the fight against it easier.
UKF is a decent faction already. It just needs a few tweaks to a few units to bring it in line with the other factions.


Keep up the good work, mod team.

I think the poll needs a question at the start:

What do you play?

1.UKF
2.OKW
3.Both!
4.Neither

So we can get an idea of the demographics and biases of the voters.
I'd just like to note how JackDickolson refuting people's notions of OP UKF and OKW mechanics was skewed. I mean no disrespect to his analysis. I think he summed it up well. But in talking about why UKF is not OP and suggesting a few minor balance tweaks (which I think are reasonable), he is required by the community to spend more time justifying the statement. Saying OKW is not OP required a quick TL;DR.

What I'm getting at is that the Axis only players are far more vocal at the moment about the allies being OP than the other way around. On a poll like this it is probably more likely that an Axis only player will respond than an Allies only.

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As a UKF player myself, I agree that the OKW units aren't OP... and that's because I know how to play the hard-counters. With a little game knowledge you can adjust your build and play style mid game to deal with a new threat. That's what the game is about.

For my UKF players:
-If you're coming up against vet 5 squads, use suppression and artillery... they bleed the same.

-If you're facing off a King Tiger, Long range AT works well, but be ready to flank with armour if it over extends!

-The Sturm Tiger takes a while to reload, understand how long it takes and be more careful with your infantry when you think it's loaded. Long range AT can push it back, again, the best way is a good flanking!

-Jaeger Light Infantry can be outshot from green cover at any range by a double bren infantry section. MG's will still suppress them and indirect will still kill them. They aren't the boogey monster.

And my OKW friends:
-The emplacements have one MAJOR weakness... They are static! We can't move them! You don't need vision to shell them from the fog of war if you know where they are. Make us brace them then move in with flame units when they unbrace, they will die in 10 seconds. Indirect fire is the way to go against Bofors, since our ability to shoot back is limited. If we're spamming emplacements, get double Stukas out ASAP.

-The Centaur is our late game answer to your late game infantry. Retreat your squads and get some AT zero'd on it and it will go down reasonably quickly.

-The AEC is our counter for early bunker spam and early light vehicles. It IS too good against infantry at the moment, I agree with the winter balance patch turning it into a more specialised AT vehicle, like the Puma. It doesn't have much health though, hit it with a Pak and we'll either have to pull it back or lose it.

It tires me how many complaints of OP units come from players that don't know how to choose the right hardcounter and micro it well. There are too many players that go into games intending to cheese something about the faction they worship, and don't know how to use half the other units available to them.

To be frank, if you're getting smashed by something your opponent has, your first thought should be: How can I play against that better? What do I need to change about my strategy? How can I improve my ability at the game?
NOT
OMG THIS SHIT IS BS SO OP IT NEEDS A NERRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFF.

If, after analysis and reflection you conclude that there is a an objective edge your opponent receives that you do not, or do not have an effective means of countering, then you can bring it up.

Too many players assume fault lies with the game and not with them. Learn the enemy's weakness, learn your units, play the hard-counters.

•  
  

  0

  VS

  [BRN]Elite Sardaukar [BRN] Pshyco [BRN]Aronin

  mfrilander ╬KOW╬Stoßtruppen ╬KOW╬ Muffin man

  Salty Axis

  by: Aronin map: Rzhev

  2

  -

You forget a lot.

1. IS from brits with double bren are much more better than anythink axis can fiel...exspacilly for this price

2. bofors can build in early game.....for a very low price..(only 30fuel..lol!)...and together with morta and pack axis must wait till 15-25min to deal with it...in this time brits gets a huge gas/ area adavantiage..espacilly in teamgame like 2v2.
on the right map..brits are too strong..thats why they are the most picked faction in the lasts tournements....and thats why some commander from them will be banned next tournement (think about this fact!!)


3. Crushwell is really tooo strong for its price...it has good armor, good vs both..superfast..it outclass every other medium

4. the brit mg is one of the best...the AT gun too....firefly is a no skill one-shot killer for the most axis armor...dont ask the call ins from the OP brits commanders (wich will be banned next torunement (once again: lol))



Question: Where is the weakpoint from brits? and if the have one...im shure the wekapoint will be delete very much by a teammate in a 2v2

oh..the emplacment cant be move?? Hmm...why? it can stand 2-3 ISG long enough to make a rush/ call in a arty (next lol:every IS can do it with a little upgrade---for very less muni)...so the ISG will die/ must be moved....enough time to rep the emplacment...or u activate your counter arty which will kill all arty on the whole map (lol)

yeah..tell me the weakpoint....maybe the comet? which reach vet 3 in no time..thanks to the 254muni commander upgrade...which make a super tank into a super duber tank??

JT: one of the reasons you want Artillery cover. This kinda of age of empires wonders are mostly never field on 1v1 but are commonly seen on 2v2+, specially depending the map.
Plausible changes: not all, a combination or just a single one.
-Remove engine upgrade.
-Reduce range to 70 (same as Ele and ISU). Adjust cost. Give it a mode on which it further reduces speed/rotation to almost none but gains back 85 range.
-Target tables. Super heavies are more vulnerable to howitzer like type of ONMAP artillery. Suxton, Anvil (?), Priest, LeFH, 152.

well, i agree that JT is OP in 3v3+, but in 2v2 its fine and therefore it should not be changed. If anything, your last option sounds like the best option. Thing is that on most 3v3 and 4v4 maps one can just ignore the area where the JT is and still have enouhg romm for ones own tanks

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Brits being a clone of Wehrmacht Ostheer being nerfed would mean a strong nerf of wehrmacht.

Someone mentionned cheaper PZ4 and more costly Cromwells...

As that won't completely totally upset the entire balance of the game?

i don't understand the logic of your first sentence. a nerf to ukf would be a buff for wm in that matchup, but thatever

yes, that would change the balance of the game. in the right direction. towards more balance.

You forget a lot.

1. IS from brits with double bren are much more better than anythink axis can fiel...exspacilly for this price

2. bofors can build in early game.....for a very low price..(only 30fuel..lol!)...and together with morta and pack axis must wait till 15-25min to deal with it...in this time brits gets a huge gas/ area adavantiage..espacilly in teamgame like 2v2.
on the right map..brits are too strong..thats why they are the most picked faction in the lasts tournements....and thats why some commander from them will be banned next tournement (think about this fact!!)


3. Crushwell is really tooo strong for its price...it has good armor, good vs both..superfast..it outclass every other medium

4. the brit mg is one of the best...the AT gun too....firefly is a no skill one-shot killer for the most axis armor...dont ask the call ins from the OP brits commanders (wich will be banned next torunement (once again: lol))



Question: Where is the weakpoint from brits? and if the have one...im shure the wekapoint will be delete very much by a teammate in a 2v2

oh..the emplacment cant be move?? Hmm...why? it can stand 2-3 ISG long enough to make a rush/ call in a arty (next lol:every IS can do it with a little upgrade---for very less muni)...so the ISG will die/ must be moved....enough time to rep the emplacment...or u activate your counter arty which will kill all arty on the whole map (lol)

yeah..tell me the weakpoint....maybe the comet? which reach vet 3 in no time..thanks to the 254muni commander upgrade...which make a super tank into a super duber tank??

My friend, I forget nothing.

There is someone ready to call each and every UKF unit overpowered. I wasn't about to go through and explain how every single unit in the UKF arsenal can be countered.

I'm not going to bother going through your gripes and explaining the drawbacks of EACH unit and how you should deal with them (you really should be able to figure this out on your own, or find the meta online).

But I will say this:

The Brits as a whole DO NOT HAVE A WEAKPOINT. Neither do any of the other factions. They all have unique units that must be used with different tactics and micromanagement, but they all have the tools to deal with any threat another faction can throw at them.
Certain units in every faction (including UKF) have things they are good at and things they are not. This changes how you use the unit.

A Cromwell breaks your lines, maybe crushes a few infantry, maybe gets a shot off and does a little damage. On the other side of that Cromwell is a player furiously micro-ing it to use the Cromwell's strengths to their advantage.
By this stage, you should have every Pak in range facing the Cromwell, infantry using fausts and panzershreks. If you can't do that then you simply aren't playing as well as your opponent. You should have laid mines on your flank to protect against this kind of manoeuvre. The onus is on you to make yourself a player that responds faster and smarter to anything your opponent throws at you.

Give me a break man, you have done the Fuhrer proud by calling the battle unfair but now it's time to teach yourself to play better.

bla bla bla..

i think you play on a low lvl...that´s why you think brits are ok with their super OP units and call-ins

Yeah..that´s why they will be banned next tournements...cause the TOP PLAYERS can`t play.

OH WAIT....its cause you can easily abuse the BS unit/callins from brits, with less micro (emplacement need no micro..but destroy the early and late midgame from axis hard)

maybe thats why they will be banned?


but..in a low lvl it could be right thats the brits are not OP..yeah..

i think you play on a low lvl...that´s why you think brits are ok with their super OP units and call-ins

Yeah..that´s why they will be banned next tournements...cause the TOP PLAYERS can`t play.

OH WAIT....its cause you can easily abuse the BS unit/callins from brits, with less micro (emplacement need no micro..but destroy the early and late midgame from axis hard)

maybe thats why they will be banned?


but..in a low lvl it could be right thats the brits are not OP..yeah..

Ok buddy, I see critical thought is beyond you.

i think you play on a low lvl...that´s why you think brits are ok with their super OP units and call-ins

Yeah..that´s why they will be banned next tournements...cause the TOP PLAYERS can`t play.

OH WAIT....its cause you can easily abuse the BS unit/callins from brits, with less micro (emplacement need no micro..but destroy the early and late midgame from axis hard)

maybe thats why they will be banned?


but..in a low lvl it could be right thats the brits are not OP..yeah..

Is 1200+ now not considered low level?

Is 1200+ now not considered low level?

If we want to start a circle jerk about our ranks to prove our points: I´m/was level 1-30 in 2vs2s with all factions some time ago (I quit playing Germans as I reached a -8 loss streak). I will gladly inform you Brits are batshit OP. All that could be seen were unwarranted lines like "get gud" from cocky Brit players. So I got good by playing Brits exclusively and I´m now on a +18 streak. Wow, I really got good. All I had to do was change the faction.

Some very great ideas here.

If we want to start a circle jerk about our ranks to prove our points: I´m/was level 1-30 in 2vs2s with all factions some time ago (I quit playing Germans as I reached a -8 loss streak). I will gladly inform you Brits are batshit OP. All that could be seen were unwarranted lines like "get gud" from cocky Brit players. So I got good by playing Brits exclusively and I´m now on a +18 streak. Wow, I really got good. All I had to do was change the faction.

Has nothing to do with my ranks, but since the guy I quoted suggests the guy he was replying to is a low level player, while being exactly that him self. At least Aronin wrote something potentially useful, while ullumulu pretty much just cried about "op stuff" (like the majority of his posts).

Interesting you brought up streaks, since its not really evidence that anything is strong or not because it could quite easily go either way - there are far too many variables over a short period of time.

Using your logic I can assume OKW is over performing since its my highest streak right?

Lets use Luvnest as an example. He has a +1 streak with Brits, yet +17 as soviet. If Brits are "batshit OP" what does that make Soviets?

Jove has a variety of streak ranges, yet Brits are not the highest and are almost the same as Ost and OKW. Does that make them just as OP?

You can inform me of whatever you like, but it doesn't really mean much to me when you have 4.6:1 of axis:allied games.

I mean you come out with stuff like:

A Vet 3 maxim will have better vet 3 than an MG34.

Unlocks the 'Sprint' ability
+20% suppression, +30% weapon rotation speed
+30% accuracy, +20% burst duration, +10% weapon rotation speed

Unlocks the ' Incendiary Armor Piercing Rounds' ability
+20% suppression, +30% weapon rotation speed
+30% accuracy, +20% burst rate of fire, +10% weapon rotation speed

They have the exact same vet bonuses.

I love the argument that some things should stay as they are because they are unique. I think Relic had the same idea when they implemented the Tiger Ace. OKW Vet 5 is incredibly stupid because it rewards a player for being ingame at the 20 minute mark and not for being good at the game. While Allied squads stop receiving vet at that point, OKW still do.

Vet 5 Füsiliers vs vet 3 Cons is a very unique matchup indeed.

OKW is just a huge mess at this point. Originally designed to be a resource starved faction, they now have regular income while still having access to Infiltration grenades for as good as no munition cost. They are the perfect product of a faction with bad initial design and damage control updates and a lack of polish.

My reasonable suggestion is to remove OKW, USF and UKF alltogether, but I can't find that in the poll for some reason.

This. Especially combined with all the other features which makes OKW so OP late game such as having the best tank in the game non doctrinally and forward bases.

I think USF is salvageable, UKF relies on emplacements too much, and OKW is a mess.

A Cromwell breaks your lines, maybe crushes a few infantry, maybe gets a shot off and does a little damage. On the other side of that Cromwell is a player furiously micro-ing it to use the Cromwell's strengths to their advantage.
By this stage, you should have every Pak in range facing the Cromwell, infantry using fausts and panzershreks. If you can't do that then you simply aren't playing as well as your opponent. You should have laid mines on your flank to protect against this kind of manoeuvre. The onus is on you to make yourself a player that responds faster and smarter to anything your opponent throws at you.

Every pak in range? I always build lots to feed mortar pit veterancy. If microing one unit (the Cromwell) requires furiousness how could we describes microing 2-3 of the following a pak/stug/p4/infantry to counter it?

The cromwell is extremely effective at countering these counters - it can flank paks/move out the arc and flank tanks with warspeed and crush any infantry whilst pushing to prevent firing. Not all at once to be fair but it can always run off. Lets hope it hits the mine or the Cromwell stumbles into the area the map where the axis player happens to have grouped their AT assets. Then a short while later hope they do it again with the next one at 110 fuel (I normally find they come in pairs anyhow)

While UK tree in general is not OP. What about OH/UK snipers being ised as a UNDENYABLE SCOUT unit in late game. That gives vision of most important area on the map. OKW is using raks same way.
In joris jove game he even moved rak inside oponents base.

Are these vision abilities ok? Why other factions dont have vision unit?

Stuff

In the end we all report about our personal experiences with the game and Brits are too strong right now. That´s what I experienced first hand. You wanted to point on ranks and you got an opinion you don´t like. Stop acting all arrogant.

There are lots of units that have worse vet 3, I just mentioned the wrong example. You get a cookie now. Shame on me for not knowing every vet bonus in the game out of my head.