Ostheer Panther

The problem is the Wehr Tier 4 as a whole, not necessarily the Panther. Staying at Tier 3 is more cost effectively and you will not feel fooled. Because that is what Tier 4 is: a joke comparing to resources you invest in it. And because of that, wehrmacht's late game sucks hard unfortunately. Tiger is under performing, as Tier 4 is. When late game British and soviet armor appear, build a pak 43 and hope for the best...
Hell, nowadays it's wort best choosing exclusively okw when playing an axis faction.

The Ostheer Panther is usually not worth investing in during a 1v1 and 2v2. Only build them if you can have them help you with heavy tanks (IS2 and Pershing). But in general Stugs should do the work for you.

Unit is in need of a slight alteration to help it fill its role properly.

first part is correct, second is wrong.

Panther do their job perfectly, problem is most people think they are "SUPER KRUPPSTEEL!11!" and yolo them into an ambush.

The trick is to just use them wisely until you get vet 2, then they become true beasts. and yeah, they aren't very good against lighter targets like shermans or T34s they perform way better against the heavies, if you want rate of fire stugs are better, panthers are for durability and pushes.

Problem with WM panther is that T3 is way too strong right now, it need a complete rework to make T4 more of a choice.

I hope my rambling helped

It did, thank you.

Just forget this pos and stick to tier 3, then call in a Tiger at 13cp. Tiger doctrines are the meta anyway.

I would like to see replay examples of micro-free allied units storming a skilled axis position and winning with that ratio, please. Otherwise, it's embellishment.

The differences between the gun on the OKW panther and the OST panther is not much. I don't think it should be a big deal to make them both equal. Using the stat site as a reference, the scatter on both of them looks to be the same, there is a .01 difference in accuracy as well. The big difference is when the unit is moving. OKW takes a 35% penalty and OST takes a 50% penalty. There is also a cooldown penalty for OST that is absent on the OKW.

The claim that allies have it better on the move seems to be true. Using the Jackson as a reference, it takes a 25% penalty. However, these moving accuracy penalties are likely hitting the already teeny tiny accuracy values.

OKW panther far accuracy .04 x .65 = 0.026
OST panther far accuracy .03 x .50 = 0.015
USF Jackson far accuracy .04 x .75 = 0.03

In order to hit a shot every single time without relying on scatter, you need a value of 1. Just for perspective, mathematically we are talking about really tiny numbers here.

The scatter is what is really going to determine anything, essentially tanks miss every shot they make. The reason they nail targets is because the projectile that missed still ends up intersecting with the target, resulting in a miss that actually hit. This value is effected significantly by distance and minimally by the accuracy value. It is also greatly effected by target size. Infantry units have super small target size, so they won't get nailed. Vehicles are much bigger and the bigger they are, the more likely they are to remain in the scatter cone.

According to the stats site, each of the 3 tanks has a maximum scatter of 8. Combined with being able to fire from longer distances than regular tanks, more true misses will occur with these units. The panthers should be missing more than the Jackson, unless the Jackson is shooting at something p4 size or smaller.

Moving the OST values to match the OKW values seems fine to me, it really doesn't seem like it would fix the problems a lot of people have with the panther (or maybe unrealistic expectations). I don't think it will fix my frustrations with it.

If I've missed some values and there is more reliable data somewhere, please share as I only used the stats site for my numbers.

The claim that allies have it better on the move seems to be true. Using the Jackson as a reference, it takes a 25% penalty. However, these moving accuracy penalties are likely hitting the already teeny tiny accuracy values.

OKW panther far accuracy .04 x .65 = 0.026
OST panther far accuracy .03 x .50 = 0.015
USF Jackson far accuracy .04 x .75 = 0.03

In order to hit a shot every single time without relying on scatter, you need a value of 1. Just for perspective, mathematically we are talking about really tiny numbers here.

The scatter is what is really going to determine anything, essentially tanks miss every shot they make. ger they are, the more likely they are to remain in The reason they nail targets is because the projectile that missed still ends up intersecting with the target, resulting in a miss that actually hit. ....

Actually that is incorrect because you are not taking target size into account.

M36 firing on Panther has 0.03X24 = 72% chance to hit.

A panther firing on sherman has 0.015X23 = 35% chance to hit.

Keep in mind also that we are talking range 60 for the m36 and range 50 for the panther and the difference becomes bigger if they are both firing at range 50.

Add to this that the 800 Hp of the Panther make little difference against a weapon with 200 damage and the fact that m36 has 0.60% chance to penetrate at range 60 and one can see why Panther stop working after the release of WFA.

To OP try using Panther with Hull down...

I wasn't aware of target size being used as a multiple for accuracy values. I thought that was a scale value used for the scatter path in a spatial calculation. Are you sure it's ok to multiply it? This results in significant accuracy increases without respect to range. That would mean almost 3/4 of Jackson shots hit (which I already experience that not being the case), but also those that miss have a set of shots that also hit, possibly bringing the figure up above 80%.

The sad answer is: ost panther is crap actually. (exspacily when u see its costs.)

its struggle hard vs infantery..and cant hunt alli tanks, cause it shoot all time in the wood on the move. and if u stay..the allie tank can run into save base.

comets overrun ur frontline with no problem..wipe here a squad, easily kill your at with grenade and destroy your stug and run back to repair (with right commander u dont even need a pio! (lol))

and come 20sek later again...and dont forget the IS with double brenns which kill all of ur squads in no time.

Its really to easy as brit vs ost. too easy

I wasn't aware of target size being used as a multiple for accuracy values. I thought that was a scale value used for the scatter path in a spatial calculation. Are you sure it's ok to multiply it? This results in significant accuracy increases without respect to range. That would mean almost 3/4 of Jackson shots hit (which I already experience that not being the case), but also those that miss have a set of shots that also hit, possibly bringing the figure up above 80%.

Yes I am sure that target size is multiplied by accuracy, it also happens for infantry where there is no collision. (But I did not check your numbers...)

Hit via collision is rather difficult to calculate theoretically/mathematically since it has to do with the actual hit box of unit.

Now check the chance to hit of the firefly.

Chance to hit = accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)

Both panthers atm usually underperform.

While I cannot claim to be an expert in 1v1 since i play 2v2 mostly I can safely say that I forgot that panther exsist at all.

In OKW I usually go pziv/jagdpz into tiger II, in OST its usually stugs/ostwind into tiger.

Thi is kinda sad that panther cannot deal effectively with both armour and infantry, epecially compared to comet, which adds insult to the injury.

Invis some post: offtopic/flaming and the ones quoting them. Chill out guys and stay on topic.

Panther is unsalvageably useless. Sapienti sat.

The command Panther is what a Panther should look like.
I don't know the stats but I love to play it (especially because of the mark target ability).

Tanks shouldn't even try to fire on the move. WW2 era stabilizers only were effective at keeping the gun pointing in the general direction of the target while on the move. T-34 didn't even have a stabilizer. So firing on the move should be basically a sure miss, unless you're targeting a house from point blank range.

That's off my chest now.

I think the Panther does it's job pretty well. It's quite fast, pretty heavily armored, can make a lot of damage to tanks, and the MG on the top makes it pretty effective against infantry as well. It is pretty expensive yes, so yolodives are not the brightest idea. Hate losing a expensive tank to a mine/at ambush. So if a Panther stays in it's infantry supporting role, it excels.