Lol shocks.

The discussion is interesting but it's almost irrelevant. If Shocks received the Penal/PG/AG treatment, and seeing their vet1 trip wire flare removed that would be a great start.
Then if they still need it, either slight mp call in cost or reinforce cost reduce by a bit they might get a bit more stage
Although i would wait and see first how the changes coming from WPB affect the meta.

They always do a great job in my opinion

1) Imo shock are not a bad unit it the WFA that are OP that creates the impression that they need buff when it the WFA that actually need one. (For instance Thompson has to much accuracy at range 20.)

2) On the other hand there are some issue with weapon profiles curves:
For instance all 4 PPsh variants have the same DPS from 10 to 0 meaning that a player should not close the distance more than 10 since most other weapon get better the closer ones get to 0. Judging distance 10 is rather difficult and it goes against how other assault troops work, so I see no reason for this type of curve.

Actually it should be the other way around other weapon profiles should stop benefiting from moving closer and smg should become better.

3) Assault troops in general could use a -target size bonus when in red and open modifier similar to (UKF troops) and a +target size penalty when in yellow/green/garrison cover. that would allow these troops to suffer less casualties while closing, while easier to dislodge from fortified positions.

Penals are cheaper and do a better job, that's why they don't get screentime. They still beat every axis infantry unit soundly.

Penals are cheaper and do a better job, that's why they don't get screentime. They still beat every axis infantry unit soundly.

Penals can be your 2nd/3rd unit. That's not the case for Shocks. That means you either have to get cons or maxims. If you go cons, you will cry on the late game. If you go maxims + shocks, you will cry against light vehicles.

A more manageable light v. + sniper situation, there might be more space for Shocks on the meta.

Penals can be your 2nd/3rd unit. That's not the case for Shocks. That means you either have to get cons or maxims. If you go cons, you will cry on the late game. If you go maxims + shocks, you will cry against light vehicles.

A more manageable light v. + sniper situation, there might be more space for Shocks on the meta.

In my limited experience with them, I usually use cons and shocks and that works fairly well for me, since cons reduce the bleed and double shocks do the main damage with maybe one maxim thrown in for blobs and the like. That usually leaves me lacking in support teams and still bleeding hard though. I think one of the biggest problems with shocks is that they sort of have a disadvantage against mainline inf of both ost and okw as grens have lmgs that pretty much negate shocks' armor (in theory I guess) and volks having stgs and rifles that do decent damage at all ranges to shocks, even facehugging distance, especially when there is more than one squad. Shocks are also way more expensive than volks and slightly more expensive than grens, and die more often in combat (as a six man assault squad). Also, they are 100% helpless against anything that has wheels or tracks.
Edit: spelling

.... I think one of the biggest problems with shocks is that they sort of have a disadvantage against mainline inf of both ost and okw as grens have lmgs that pretty much negate shocks' armor (in theory I guess) and volks having stgs and rifles that do decent damage at all ranges to shocks, even facehugging distance, especially when there is more than one squad. Shocks are also way more expensive than volks and slightly more expensive than grens, and die more often in combat (as a six man assault squad)...

Shocs have no reason to move closer then 10 since their DPS does not improve closer to that range so they should not facehug anything.

Shocs have no reason to move closer then 10 since their DPS does not improve closer to that range so they should not facehug anything.

Ok at range 10 then. Still doesn't make the rest of the post a moot point.

Ok at range 10 then. Still doesn't make the rest of the post a moot point.

No it does not I simply pointed out that Shock gain nothing from moving closer to 10 while their opponents do.

Imo its a flaw in the profile curve of PPsh (and of the other weapons)

Shocs have no reason to move closer then 10 since their DPS does not improve closer to that range so they should not facehug anything.

There is a huge advantage to continuing to move closer, in that your opponent will have longer time at max DPS. Stated another way, when he tries to get back, which he will, the shock DPS will remain high for longer if they have further to go.

Shocks just don't make sense right now, with their late arrival, lack of AT, and miserable damage at all ranges other than face hugger. Their huge cost and inability to effectively merge with scripts makes them expensive at all points in the game. Throw in that penals are much more efficient and you just won't see them. However, they are still good. Imagine if you could get them at 0CP's as long as you picked a commander. I suspect you would see them every game.

Shocks need a slight buff, they either need to be more survivable to close gaps or they need less punishing DPS drop offs. Changes to penals should also help to make them more attractive. Their extremely lack luster AT won't be a problem if they are truly amazing at their job of AI. Their vet 1 also should be replaced, probably by ranger like vet 1 which makes nades (or maybe just smoke nades) cool down faster.

There is a huge advantage to continuing to move closer, in that your opponent will have longer time at max DPS. Stated another way, when he tries to get back, which he will, the shock DPS will remain high for longer if they have further to go.

Shocks just don't make sense right now, with their late arrival, lack of AT, and miserable damage at all ranges other than face hugger. Their huge cost and inability to effectively merge with scripts makes them expensive at all points in the game. Throw in that penals are much more efficient and you just won't see them. However, they are still good. Imagine if you could get them at 0CP's as long as you picked a commander. I suspect you would see them every game.

Shocks need a slight buff, they either need to be more survivable to close gaps or they need less punishing DPS drop offs. Changes to penals should also help to make them more attractive. Their extremely lack luster AT won't be a problem if they are truly amazing at their job of AI. Their vet 1 also should be replaced, probably by ranger like vet 1 which makes nades (or maybe just smoke nades) cool down faster.

Actually no. If you move closer then 10 you opponent will increased DPS while you will not. If your opponent moves back you can follow him and you still have an advantage because Shock have some of the best modifier for firing on the move.

Again Shock DO NOT have face hug opponent to have good DPS, they have one of the highest DPS from range 10.

Again Shock DO NOT have face hug opponent to have good DPS, they have one of the highest DPS from range 10.

Problem is that range isn't as clear for most people. You can't just wild guess mid combat if you are at 10 or 12. From 10 to 15 the DPS drop is abysmal (14.21794 to 2.03943) so you would rather stay at "hug range 5" to 10.

There's also the issue that you won't wipe any squad unless you are hugging them. Unless they have to retreat going through shocks, chances of long range wipe are minimal.

Problem is that range isn't as clear for most people. You can't just wild guess mid combat if you are at 10 or 12. From 10 to 15 the DPS drop is abysmal (14.21794 to 2.03943) so you would rather stay at "hug range 5" to 10.

There's also the issue that you won't wipe any squad unless you are hugging them. Unless they have to retreat going through shocks, chances of long range wipe are minimal.

1) I am simply responding to argument that one has to go to range zero to have good DPS with shock and that simply not true. The Shock have the same DPS from 10 to 0. (I wouldn't describe range 10 as hug range)

2) I have also explained that imo PPsh curve being flat from 10 to 0 is a flaw (similar to assault grenadiers) especially since most weapons including bolt action rifles get better from 10 to 0.

Smg should imo follow pioneer curve that benefit the closer one get. Other weapon should see very little improvement.

3) The argument was that Shock do not have DPS unless at 0 range not that they can get wipes, in addition contrary to other squad they have one of the best DPS on the move and can chase retreating squads with very little penalties. (especially if one uses "for the motherland")

4) If one opponents chooses to stay and fight (as described to post I responded) Shock are better at range 10, if opponent hit the retreat shock should move as close as possible and continue to chase the retreating unit.

5) Estimating and knowing what distance is mid far and close for each weapon is an issue and that is why I had suggested that they could become visible as circles by pressing a key.

6) Imo having Smgs with better DPS than assault rifles to ranges up to 15 is not good either.

You know, the game is more than just showing off knowledge of its game mechanics to win. elchino7 is right, and you're wrong in this argument.

I don't get how people don't see how utterly illusionary DPS calculations are for this game.

I don't get how people don't see how utterly illusionary DPS calculations are for this game.

They at least provide a reference point though.

You know, the game is more than just showing off knowledge of its game mechanics to win. elchino7 is right, and you're wrong in this argument.

Knowledge of the game does not win you games, that is true but it allows you to have better understanding of the game and have a more informed opinion. You obviously do not need because you spent more time in personal comment than in useful game input.

You are also confusing showing off with supporting one's opinion with factual arguments. That partially explains why you provide no arguments to back up your view.


It seem that I will mostly have to ignore you from now on, until you provide helpful feedback. Have a nice day.

snip

Please stop with the powercreep. Shocks were good before penal buff and they are still very tanky. Let's have the Penal nerfed to were they should be and shocks will become again a real choice.

They are great if you know how to flank.

if you are a 4v4 hero and use them as frontline infantry on open ground, they aren't great.

There is a huge advantage to continuing to move closer, in that your opponent will have longer time at max DPS. Stated another way, when he tries to get back, which he will, the shock DPS will remain high for longer if they have further to go.

Shocks just don't make sense right now, with their late arrival, lack of AT, and miserable damage at all ranges other than face hugger. Their huge cost and inability to effectively merge with scripts makes them expensive at all points in the game. Throw in that penals are much more efficient and you just won't see them. However, they are still good. Imagine if you could get them at 0CP's as long as you picked a commander. I suspect you would see them every game.

Shocks need a slight buff, they either need to be more survivable to close gaps or they need less punishing DPS drop offs. Changes to penals should also help to make them more attractive. Their extremely lack luster AT won't be a problem if they are truly amazing at their job of AI. Their vet 1 also should be replaced, probably by ranger like vet 1 which makes nades (or maybe just smoke nades) cool down faster.

lets not mimic axis faks complaining that best units are UP. Shoks are ok as a unit. The way game goes on makes them have no place. Problem that axis is broken, 0 skill and total abuse.

Every game is one of the following.
1. 222 rush
2. camping of different types
3. ostwind rush
4. stug e into tiger or into mass stug e = abuse of no tech.
5. sniper abuse

Where is the place for ANY GOOD AI INFANTRY in any of these scenario?