Wehrmacht Infantry in WBP till 1.8

In the WBP scopes Relic literally said this:

This balance mod has been created as a collaboration between community members and balance modders, GGTheMachine, Mr Smith, and Miragefla. The scope of this patch has been focused to a subset of priority balance concerns sourced from community feedback and balance data. These concern areas include Light Tanks/Vehicles, Squad Formations & Clumping, USF Mortar, Penals & Guards, and Wehrmacht Infantry Scaling. Through addressing potential issues in these areas, we hope to mitigate dominant meta and increase strategic diversity. For more detailed insight behind these changes, read our Winter Balance Preview blog post.


I appreciate the effort of the modders. But my question is, what was done in WBP till 1.8 to achieve the goal of improving Wehrmacht Infantry Scaling?

I appreciate the effort of the modders. But my question is, what was done in WBP till 1.8 to achieve the goal of improving Wehrmacht Infantry Scaling?

In order of significance (from most significant to least important):

- Nerfing all direct threats to Wermacht infantry* (spacing, light vehicles, USF mortar)
- Nerfing all opposing infantry down a notch so that Wermacht infantry is on par (Guards/Penals/Riflemen) or superior to them (Shocks/non-PPSh Conscripts/Forgotten "elite" infantry squads)
- Nerfing all direct and indirect threats to OST's reinforcement half-track so that it becomes viable
- Pioneer buff
- Cheap reliable medkits

* Unfortunately we couldn't add the following to the list of scalability-deniers:
- demo charges (and other similar abilities)
- and landmattress/calliope
- tank crushing

* Unfortunately we couldn't add the following to the list of scalability-deniers:
- demo charges (and other similar abilities)
- and landmattress/calliope
- tank crushing

We know you guys are being choked by the scope, don't worry.

I am not sure why people complain so much about scope.

Sweeping changes are very difficult to get right and some times rather difficult to figure out what went wrong.

The light vehicles changes alone are enough to sift balance and may need more tweaking.

A re-balance of early infantry needs to be made at some point thou and a Tank/TD overhaul also.

First priority imo should still be veterancy abilities and bonuses.

Honorable mention to the PGren Vet change where they get some of their Received Accuracy sooner at Vet 1 as well

Bring the patch faster, just bring it online. Why not? Balance is terrible in favor for Allies actually

Bring the patch faster, just bring it online. Why not? Balance is terrible in favor for Allies actually

Not their decision, it's Relics.

Same as the scope. OP p2w units such as the Calliope and the Land Mattress need to stay OP in order to make money. Same with Pershing and Comet.

Not their decision, it's Relics.

Same as the scope. OP p2w units such as the Calliope and the Land Mattress need to stay OP in order to make money. Same with Pershing and Comet.

Nah, that was BEFORE you could buy them with loot points, not so pay 2 win anymore.

But I'm guessing any new commanders they add will be only buyable with real money.

If they add any new commanders that is.

Honorable mention to the PGren Vet change where they get some of their Received Accuracy sooner at Vet 1 as well

-Vet1 boring useless medkits + (-)15% received accuracy
-Vet2 -20% receive accuracy + (-)25%cooldown

This would make the scaling to vet2 a bit less drastic, increasing a bit survivability early on.

Note: i know that it would mean a bit more extra less received accuracy but it´s not as significant
Vet0 = 0.87 / 1.15±
Vet1 = 0.7395 / 1.35±
Vet2 = 0.5916 (0.6177) / 1.69± (1.62±)

It only took 3 years to implement

Let's be children about it: two and a half years.

Nah, that was BEFORE you could buy them with loot points, not so pay 2 win anymore.

But I'm guessing any new commanders they add will be only buyable with real money.

If they add any new commanders that is.

Keep in mind how many Points you get in which amount of time.
Let's make a calculation.

A CoH2 commander costs 15.000 loot points (I might be wrong, I am at work, but let's assume it this way).
You need to win three games to get a crate of 500 loot points (let's also assume that you are a pretty good CoH2 player and win every single game you play; ALSO you are a unlucky mofo that never gets anything out of crates but loot points, no skins or anything).

A game takes about 40 minutes of time to finish, most games are longer, but others are much shorter.

To get 500 Loot Points it takes you:

40 * 3 = 120 minutes = 2 hours.

In order to buy yourself a commander it takes you:

15.000 / 500 = 30 << Amount of loot crates you need to buy a commander
30 * 2 = 60 << Amount of hours on average you need to get that many points

Keep in mind that this is just a calculation of a perfect (in terms of crate drops and wins) calculation.
If we keep it realistic and say that you really are a good player and win 3 out of 4 games:

60 hours + 25% = 75 hours << Amount of hours it takes you when you win 75% of your games

So a very good player needs 75 hours (more than 3 days!) of consequent CoH2 gaming to get one single commander for one single faction, which is insane.

Sure, as a CoH2 veteran you get Loot from double bulletins and stuff you could salvage from the past, but a new CoH2 player has nothing to salvage and starts with 0 Loot. And since as good as all "good" commanders that are meta are not available from the start, it is hard for him to compete because he gets stomped by those "better" commanders OR maybe he thinks about that 3$ are not the world and decides to buy himself a "good" commander.

It still simply is pay to win. You either pay real money to keep yourself competitive or you pay more than 70 real hours for those 3$, which is an hourly wage (hahaha) of about 0.04$. As someone with a job, I maybe get about 5-8 hours a week to play CoH2 in the evening, so it would take me about 10 weeks or 3 months to get a commander. And from my experiences, this timespan is pretty accurate.

Let's be real though, many players will simply abandon the game. Personally I would never, EVER pay for some ingame bullshit that gives me better chances to win. I bought WFA and the Brits, that's it.

Show Spoiler

Or you compstomp 1vs1 Easy Computer and you end the game in 10 minutes.
Or you compstomp 1vs1 Computer and you surrender at 5 minutes (but only get 1500pts)
Or you play vs a partner and you surrender every 5 minutes one after the other.

Your only limit is the amount of supply you can get every day, which I don't remember the total.

that is what happens when you have blatantly allied biased mooders taking charge

Or you compstomp 1vs1 Easy Computer and you end the game in 10 minutes.
Or you compstomp 1vs1 Computer and you surrender at 5 minutes (but only get 1500pts)
Or you play vs a partner and you surrender every 5 minutes one after the other.

Your only limit is the amount of supply you can get every day, which I don't remember the total.

I think your game needs to be at least about 10 minutes long in order to get any Loot.
So even if you compstomp all the time easy PCs (which is soooooo much fun Kappa) you still need 25% of my calculated time, which is still about 15 - 20 hours of pure nonstop compstomping.

No sane person will do that.

Keep in mind how many Points you get in which amount of time.
Let's make a calculation.

A CoH2 commander costs 15.000 loot points (I might be wrong, I am at work, but let's assume it this way).
You need to win three games to get a crate of 500 loot points (let's also assume that you are a pretty good CoH2 player and win every single game you play; ALSO you are a unlucky mofo that never gets anything out of crates but loot points, no skins or anything).

A game takes about 40 minutes of time to finish, most games are longer, but others are much shorter.

To get 500 Loot Points it takes you:


In order to buy yourself a commander it takes you:
...

Your calculation only includes the people who bought the game after the new version of war spoils. People who had stacking biulletins got coins for every duplicate. For example i got 160k coins!! Which means players who are with us for quite a while could easily purchase at least 1 OP commander instantly.

Your calculation only includes the people who bought the game after the new version of war spoils. People who had stacking biulletins got coins for every duplicate. For example i got 160k coins!! Which means players who are with us for quite a while could easily purchase at least 1 OP commander instantly.

That's what this paragraph is for:

Sure, as a CoH2 veteran you get Loot from double bulletins and stuff you could salvage from the past, but a new CoH2 player has nothing to salvage and starts with 0 Loot. And since as good as all "good" commanders that are meta are not available from the start, it is hard for him to compete because he gets stomped by those "better" commanders OR maybe he thinks about that 3$ are not the world and decides to buy himself a "good" commander.

I think your game needs to be at least about 10 minutes long in order to get any Loot.
So even if you compstomp all the time easy PCs (which is soooooo much fun Kappa) you still need 25% of my calculated time, which is still about 15 - 20 hours of pure nonstop compstomping.

No sane person will do that.

At the moment the surrender button is available, you earn point/loot so 5 minutes.
So yes with the compstomp method you need 15 hours but
1- Many new players are already only playing compstomp
2- You can use this method sometime when you are waiting friends to play
Nobody says getting a new commander should be easy, but logical = you play, you are sure to get a commander after a period of time, and the one you really want.

Now you also have to consider the game cost 20euros on steam and can probably be found aroud 10 euros on different stores or even less during sold. So in the end, you can buy it really cheap and invest 10 more euros on commanders (which are also many times sold). All of that for half of the price other players paid for the same stuff.
We can also compare it with a MMORPG, you can be a new player and reach level max on any mmo game and still you'll not be equal to others which have been there for long time. You'll need time to grind your stuff and any time you face one of those better stuffed player, you'll probably die fast whenever you are better or not.

Today in Coh2, USF/OKW/Sov have commanders from the get to go that are clearly fine, Ostheer maybe not (don't remember which were free) but we hope the patch will change that in some way. Brit I dunno as I don't have the faction. And Honestly at low level till top 500, except from some hypothetical noob-killer commanders, improving your skill will always be superior than getting a new commander.

snip

Only thing is, for a new player the situation is even worse. He won't get Loot Points every 3 wins, no he will get useless bulletins etc. Multiply your calculation by 2 and you have a more realistic number (normal play or grinding vs easy Ai). You only get reliable loot points if you own almost everything, like almost everybody who played this game for 2-4 years. But for new players there is no way in earning new commanders via loot points without extensively grinding or buying new commanders.
So you are completely right the system is still very much pay to win. And that was one of my major criticism back in the war spoils beta and alpha, but nothing changed.

We can also compare it with a MMORPG, you can be a new player and reach level max on any mmo game and still you'll not be equal to others which have been there for long time. You'll need time to grind your stuff and any time you face one of those better stuffed player, you'll probably die fast whenever you are better or not.

Today in Coh2, USF/OKW/Sov have commanders from the get to go that are clearly fine, Ostheer maybe not (don't remember which were free) but we hope the patch will change that in some way. Brit I dunno as I don't have the faction. And Honestly at low level till top 500, except from some hypothetical noob-killer commanders, improving your skill will always be superior than getting a new commander.

The comparison to an mmo isn't viable. CoH is a strategy game, there the only decisive factor should be your skill. The goal of an mmo is to get better loot and abilities, so your char levels up and becomes better. It´s not always necessary to become a better player, the superior items should be enough to win vs lower level players, even if they might are better players. This holds true for an mmo, but it should not for an rts. Buyable Items, in this case commanders shouldn´t have an impact on the outcoming of the game. In a hypothetical game between two players of equal skill the player with the better commander will win. And in most cases the better commander was bought = definition of p2win. It was totally obvious before the war spoils patch and it got better but p2w is still a thing, because the effort/reward ratio is still not fair especially for new players.

1- Many new players are already only playing compstomp

In this case, the problem isn't that much of a problem itself. Playing against the AI will never lead in such a stress like playing against real enemies will. The AI will not use cheese against you, it's too dumb for that. It is possible (and fun) to play against the AI with every "standard" commander with good chances to win. You will see, if you use the cheese tactics you learned from ranked games, even a hard AI will have absolutely zero chances.

2- You can use this method sometime when you are waiting friends to play
Nobody says getting a new commander should be easy, but logical = you play, you are sure to get a commander after a period of time, and the one you really want.

Yeah, but realistically you do this maybe once or twice while waiting, not in a regular case.

The logic behind "you play = you get a commander" is correct but you can also say "you walk = you will arrive in China one day" - It is much MUCH more comforting to simply pay real money ( = buy a plane ticket). Nobody will walk to China by foot because it's too much stress. And also hardcore grinding is CoH2 is also absolutely no pleasure.

Now you also have to consider the game cost 20euros on steam and can probably be found aroud 10 euros on different stores or even less during sold. So in the end, you can buy it really cheap and invest 10 more euros on commanders (which are also many times sold). All of that for half of the price other players paid for the same stuff.

That justification is questionable. Only because other players paid 20€ for a game and you paid 10€ does not mean that your wallet gives you a buffer. You bought the game because you saw a deal and wouldn't have bought it for 20€. That also includes that you won't be willing to invest your savings into stuff for the game. With this explanation you could also say that those freemium mobile games are the best. You get the game for free, so you automatically get a 10€ (or whatever the game experience is "worth") buffer from your wallet and your mind, but this is not the case.

CoH2 does NOT cost 10/20/whatever euros because it is a "free" 2 play game, but because it is more than three years old. It would be understandable (or better: "somehow" understandable) if CoH2 released for 10€ with the addition that extra commanders cost extra money. But it released as a full priced game with additional buyable content that gives you massive advantages. Usually games are either full priced and come with everything from the start (except skins, which don't change the gameplay) OR are completely free from the start and you pay for ingame stuff (like most mobile games).
CoH2 cost full price on release, which is 60€ where I live AND demanded even more money if you wanted to stay somehow comparable to other players in higher ranks. This. is. not. acceptable.

We can also compare it with a MMORPG, you can be a new player and reach level max on any mmo game and still you'll not be equal to others which have been there for long time. You'll need time to grind your stuff and any time you face one of those better stuffed player, you'll probably die fast whenever you are better or not.

In MMORPGs there are different areas for low level players where everyone is around your level. The game supports you (at least a bit) in the grinding process. You get different quests and stuff, but grinding in CoH2 is playing the same match over and over again. What would help here would be a rewarding system like "You killed more than 200 soldiers in this match, here take 150 Extra Points", but this is not implemented because it would weaken the sales if there were "more acceptable" forms of grinding.

Also in MMORPGs you will never face an enemy that is 50 levels above you (only if you walk to the respective area because you are an idiot haha), but in CoH2 the player base is so small that the game will give you a player that is much better than you are, if it doesn't fit a better fitting player in a specific time frame.

Today in Coh2, USF/OKW/Sov have commanders from the get to go that are clearly fine, Ostheer maybe not (don't remember which were free) but we hope the patch will change that in some way. Brit I dunno as I don't have the faction. And Honestly at low level till top 500, except from some hypothetical noob-killer commanders, improving your skill will always be superior than getting a new commander.

You might be right in terms of Soviets, but USF has Calliope, which is OP and not available from the start and UKF has Land Mattress. OKW has fortifications, but overall the OKW commanders from the go are fine. Ostheer has Elite Troops and Mechanized Assault which are both meta and not available.