The Problem with CoH2’s RNG: Consistency

My thoughts about is.

Make some ultra-pro-no-rng-mode and play it all day long with few others without runing the game itself

How do you remove RNG from all indirect fire?
And how do you remove RNG from WW2?

It is all very simple and concrete. There should be no mechanic that creates cases wildly differing from average results.

Example: a player should be able to know in advance that a mortar barrage of four shells against his infantry unit will mean that shell no. 1 will land in a vicinity that causes ¬5-10% damage, with every subsequent shell landing nearer and causing more damage, finishing with shell no. 4 that does maybe ¬60% damage. Numbers are made up for illustration purposes.

This is (1) predictable, which gives an attentive and well-microing player the opportunity to avoid most of damage while punishing those not reacting to indirect fire, and (2) realistic, because that's how indirect fire works in real life (including WW2). A mortar crew fires first shell, observes results and corrects settings for next shell, which then is more accurate. Etc, etc.

The idea of arranging completely random events is neither realistic nor fun for a player on the receiving end of it. Just because some Twitch viewer wants to lul at units doing unpredictable s**t while gulping his beer and spamming emotes in chat, that doesn't make it fair on the player who has to suffer from that kind of b***s*** despite doing his best to achieve a result in the match.

Also in response to a point made in the video above. The idea that "no RNG=no tension" is simply false. Matches are decided by who makes the most/costliest mistake(s), and that is exactly the source of tension in any given CoH2 combat scenario. When two players of comparable skill go up against one another, it's a test of their micro/judgment skill, and you can't know for sure which one will prevail -- that is pure tension and unpredictability; and it's one based on merit, not developer meddling with code.

Also in response to a point made in the video above. The idea that "no RNG=no tension" is simply false. Matches are decided by who makes the most/costliest mistake(s), and that is exactly the source of tension in any given CoH2 combat scenario. When two players of comparable skill go up against one another, it's a test of their micro/judgment skill, and you can't know for sure which one will prevail -- that is pure tension and unpredictability; and it's one based on merit, not developer meddling with code.

The RNG is pure, you are the one advocating meddling with the code to control chance.

The RNG is pure, you are the one advocating meddling with the code to control chance.

See mortar example in that post. That would be what you could call "pure", not one shell landing on top of a squad and next one coming 10 metres away. And I don't even have to mention the fact that Lelic creations like randomised vehicle abandons are code meddling and not "pure".

See mortar example in that post. That would be what you could call "pure", not one shell landing on top of a squad and next one coming 10 metres away.

The game doesn't need perfect homing shells that strategically miss and hit the same every barrage. It's messy and incredibly exploitable.

The RNG is pure because you know that there is simply shells falling on this area, if you stand there you are in danger. It doesn't need magic homing shells to deal the perfect amount of not enough damage that you like. That's the least interesting and dull concept of a mortar i can imagine.

magic homing shells to deal the perfect amount of not enough damage that you like.

That's most certainly not what I described. And what I described is how they actually work IRL = what would be considered a "pure" mechanic, which is what you and I were discussing here, not how boring or fun this or that approach is.

Only real problematic RNG is püppchen missing their first shot.

everything else is your own fault

The worst examples of RNG have been removed from the game. The abandon mechanic was reworked (it's OK now IMO, apart from the US engine band aid), planes no longer pulverize armies, mines can't wipe. What remains is the level of RNG that has always existed in the franchise.

It's true that the first infantry engagement may be decided by RNG, but whether/where/when to take that engagement is up to the player, and on good maps the options are more than sufficient.

Once there are 4-5+ squads for each side, the importance of RNG in infantry combat becomes vastly overshadowed by micro. Something as trivial as a piece of light cover and whether a squad is firing on the move or not will decide a battle much, much more often than which model gets focused in a squad, and the luck factor averages more and more between players the longer the game goes on. Good play, on the other hand, consistently benefits the better player.

As to mortar shell wipes, well, you can hear it firing - stay and take a chance or move your squad (unless you're facing the US one, which is infamously OP as fuck). Players always blame RNG when a squad dies to a mortar, whether it's the first or the tenth shell that kills it.

People still cry about the RNG in 2017?

Both Company of Heroes can be played "e-sport like" if you want (like organizing your own cup), RNG just spices things up and makes this game a gem.

How about stop blaming RNG, Relic, the tree that blocked your tank, your grenadier why he missed that clutch shot on the retreat Ranger squad with his 420 no scope lmg, Commanders, teammate or maps coz you got rekt and couldnt win $$$.

Nothing personal against wada and the others but it's just annoying af how people still wannabe CoH epic masters and re-work the game coz they can't take a defeat like a man and gotta blame something.

Oh look, I'm top 10 pro player because I abooouse OP stuff...relic plz change the game to my taste coz I'm pro af and wanna earn $$$ while making CoH great again.

If you want a competitive game go play games designed for E-sports and tourneys but leave CoH alone.

We had tons of tourneys for both titles, all them were amazing (yes, we had RNG all the way). I guess it can't be a coincidence.


God I hope this game will never be an e-sport title. It's made for fun for the common folks.

/rant

The other day I saw a stream of COH1 and noticed that when selecting a tank was displayed in the game HUD a schematic of the structure of the tank. If the engine is damaged, in the scheme it would be displaying the rear of the tank in red, signaling that part of the tank that was destroyed. I think the CoH2 shielding system would have been better if they took advantage of this scheme and there was a "shield life" of each part of the tank. When that "life" reached 0 all shots would make a direct impact. The current system based largely on the RNG is very frustrating at certain times. There are matches that you are superior throughout the game, but then in late your opponent is blessed by the RNG and turns the game by destroying some crucial unit of yours in the late game. I find it really unfair, maybe a system based on the form I said was fairer. It's the suggestion.

The worst examples of RNG have been removed from the game. The abandon mechanic was reworked (it's OK now IMO, apart from the US engine band aid), planes no longer pulverize armies, mines can't wipe. What remains is the level of RNG that has always existed in the franchise.

It's true that the first infantry engagement may be decided by RNG, but whether/where/when to take that engagement is up to the player, and on good maps the options are more than sufficient.

Once there are 4-5+ squads for each side, the importance of RNG in infantry combat becomes vastly overshadowed by micro. Something as trivial as a piece of light cover and whether a squad is firing on the move or not will decide a battle much, much more often than which model gets focused in a squad, and the luck factor averages more and more between players the longer the game goes on. Good play, on the other hand, consistently benefits the better player.

As to mortar shell wipes, well, you can hear it firing - stay and take a chance or move your squad (unless you're facing the US one, which is infamously OP as fuck). Players always blame RNG when a squad dies to a mortar, whether it's the first or the tenth shell that kills it.

+1

OP: i'm indifferent to weapon drops (not a strong opinion in favour or against). I think that abandon has been somehow "fixed" by having them with damaged engines. Finally i think it's REALLY funny that you mention Hearthstone. I think Poker is a better example but this also backfires your point.
Think about tank combat (late game) as late game 1v1 poker with the difference that control of RNG is higher on CoH2. Positioning, moving/stopping to fire, attack target/ground, front/rear armor, n/m/f range, penetration, etc.

We had tons of tourneys for both titles, all them were amazing (yes, we had RNG all the way). I guess it can't be a coincidence.


God I hope this game will never be an e-sport title. It's made for fun for the common folks.

/rant

Ya the last tourny, warpaint, was such a huge success since it could barely break 1k viewers. The in-person final was useless since it didn't utilize anything: no facecams during game, shitty audio quality, and the pregame stream wasn't even full screen. Also the finals had less viewers than the opening round. Due to great success of warpaint, we saw relic delay the Q4 2016 winter update to spring 2017. There still isn't any new content being created by Relic. Most of the major players & streamers left. Warpaint champ DevM doesn't even play this game, only coming back for the $$$.

How about the success of ESL? Lead Dev Brad made the AEC OP, OP mattress, OP brit arty call-in, Veterency broke, Broken maxim + AT partysans dominated March ESL. After ESL Brad & the dev team got fired so the balance responsibilities have shifted to community members and somehow these patches take forever and break the game - combine arms bug, USF mortar vet glitch, USF mortar being OP, USF mortar still being OP after nerf.

HUGE SUCCESS!!! COH2 IS THE BIGGEST GAME AND BIGGEST ESPORT IN THE WORLD. THESE ARNT JUST ALTERNATIVE FACTS, THEY ARE REAL FAKES. DON'T BELIEVE THE FAKE NEWS OF COH2 BEING A SHITTY GAME & ESPORT. COH2 IS BEST. RELIC WILL MAKE COH2 GREAT AGAIN. IF YOU DISAGREE, YOURE A LIBERAL CUCK. IM NOT A FOOTMAN, YOU A FOOTMAN.

To end on a serious note, I speak to a lot of major people in the esports industry and most don't know what CoH2 is. Most people don't know what CoH2 is. The few devs, who know CoH2, only know about it because of the success of CoH1, which came out in 2006 before modern esports was created. I see CoH2 & Relic for what it is and wasn't shy about what the problems are. Unlike a lot of haters, I've put time & energy trying to make the game better but ultimately I can only show Relic the path, they have to walk down the path. For whatever reason, either cutting their losses or they think they know best, they don't really care about improving CoH2 tbh.

HUGE SUCCESS!!! COH2 IS THE BIGGEST GAME AND BIGGEST ESPORT IN THE WORLD. THESE ARNT JUST ALTERNATIVE FACTS, THEY ARE REAL FAKES. DON'T BELIEVE THE FAKE NEWS OF COH2 BEING A SHITTY GAME & ESPORT. COH2 IS BEST. RELIC WILL MAKE COH2 GREAT AGAIN. IF YOU DISAGREE, YOURE A LIBERAL CUCK. IM NOT A FOOTMAN, YOU A FOOTMAN.

Lol wtf. Who is this even supposed to be a strawman of?

CoH2 will never be an esports title. The game is already > 3 years old. Just enjoy CoH2 like most of us do.
CoH2 was rushed out because a company went bankrupt, that's the way it is. The game itself, the engine, everything is just mediocre. Devs have lost interest for a long time now.

But it seems like some people still go to bed everyday thinking about "How can I improve CoH2?" which is laudable in theory but to keep it real, I also somehow pity does guys who pay thousands of dollars to tune up their shitty Hondas. In the end its still just a mediocre car.

People still cry about the RNG in 2017?

Both Company of Heroes can be played "e-sport like" if you want (like organizing your own cup), RNG just spices things up and makes this game a gem.

How about stop blaming RNG, Relic, the tree that blocked your tank, your grenadier why he missed that clutch shot on the retreat Ranger squad with his 420 no scope lmg, Commanders, teammate or maps coz you got rekt and couldnt win $$$.

Nothing personal against wada and the others but it's just annoying af how people still wannabe CoH epic masters and re-work the game coz they can't take a defeat like a man and gotta blame something.

Oh look, I'm top 10 pro player because I abooouse OP stuff...relic plz change the game to my taste coz I'm pro af and wanna earn $$$ while making CoH great again.

If you want a competitive game go play games designed for E-sports and tourneys but leave CoH alone.

We had tons of tourneys for both titles, all them were amazing (yes, we had RNG all the way). I guess it can't be a coincidence.


God I hope this game will never be an e-sport title. It's made for fun for the common folks.

/rant

Yes yes, keep ranting like a fool. Everyone wants to see you make a complete idiot of yourself.

Warpaint champ DevM doesn't even play this game, only coming back for the $$$.

Isn't that proof if anything that RNG doesn't really trump skill? He never played this game that much (except the few months before OCF) and yet consistently performed very well in nearly all his tourney games.

How about the success of ESL? Lead Dev Brad made the AEC OP, OP mattress, OP brit arty call-in, Veterency broke, Broken maxim + AT partysans dominated March ESL.

Cool story, again, how is this related to your thread's supposed point?

To end on a serious note, I speak to a lot of major people in the esports industry and most don't know what CoH2 is. Most people don't know what CoH2 is. The few devs, who know CoH2, only know about it because of the success of CoH1, which came out in 2006 before modern esports was created. I see CoH2 & Relic for what it is and wasn't shy about what the problems are. Unlike a lot of haters, I've put time & energy trying to make the game better but ultimately I can only show Relic the path, they have to walk down the path. For whatever reason, either cutting their losses or they think they know best, they don't really care about improving CoH2 tbh.

What a visionary you are. Personally, I'd say Relic was right in not really focusing on the competitive multiplayer aspect because they did kinda botch up the release of the game, and climbing up to an "esport" title from a point where most people consider your game failed on some level would've required such amazing wads of cash thrown at development and constant tourney prizes that it just couldn't be financially viable for an RTS which is a niche market at best these days. See Grey Goo for an example of devs actually blowing money on trying to do this and just getting an even worse result than what happened to coh2.

The few times when Relic did get involved in tourneys was probably them testing the water with some limited budget they got for it, and I guess like you they weren't that pleased with the results so it ended there.

did anyone ever wonder that back then in Vcoh unit die pretty quick in a second but didn't felt hurt that much ,yet still can come back but in COH2 somehow lose only 1-2 model per squad to arty barage can cause a major problem while in Vcoh we usaully lose entire squad

there is a AA unit somekind like ostwind which kill almost 1 model per brust but we all feel ok with that right ? even i my self only played allied back then and never win any match for one

does vet system have something to do with this ? or upkeep cost thing ?

There are lots of people who love CoH2 and would vote for getting rid of the RNG factor precisely because of that. The amount of these people is very clear on Twitch streams hosted by leading players and during various tournaments.

Speaking of the latter, if you claim to love this game you should be concerned how it has failed in wider promotion compared to competitive RTS games, precisely because of the RNG mechanics that eliminate any reasonable e-sports factor from CoH2. And that failure means we're now looking at community-made balance patches to save this game from losing its playerbase.

I've played CoH series since 2010 and I definitely don't love its flaws, so please don't speak on behalf of people like me when making these public declarations.

What RTS games are you referring to? I was under the impression that CoH2 was the most popular multiplayer RTS game after Starcraft 2.