Tiger Ace's resource penalties

The Tiger Ace is fine in my opinion (Compared to the vanilla Tiger, the better sight and faster RoF from the start are surely worth calling in). However, the penalty when calling it in is a little bit over-the-top, actually. I mean, the fuel lock is understandable, but the MP decrease is a little bit too much. Like, 75%! This makes the commander not that viable in 2v2+ compare to ones with normal Tiger or even Elefant since you don't have to carry such penalties.

Even though, the entire commander is very good in 1v1 so... I'm not sure what can be done to make this one more viable in larger gamemodes... Maybe reduce the MP penalty downs to around 25% - 40%? Any ideas? (Consider the fact that it's no where near the KT but still got quite a burden when call it in)‎

EDIT: According to most people here, the most suitable idea now is to remove the Ace due to its veteran status and resource penalties being the flaws of the old, broken "veteran call-ins", which had been fixed a long time ago. Therefore, now the question became what should be done to fill up the Ace' slot? (In my opinion, the KT is the most suitable candidate. Reasons mentioned below)‎

Even if the penalties are completely removed the ability will be fine imo.

Compared to normal Tiger the Tiger ace has the following disadvantages:
1)Can not be replaced
2)Cp17 vs Cp13
3)Cost 800(720/260) vs 640/240
4)Can not vet
increase cost if need but the penalty can go.

(EDIT COST after response cost in parenthesis is the value of unit )

3)Cost 720/260 vs 640/240

The Tiger Ace costs 800mp to call in, no fuel.

We had this discussion before.

I stay with my opinion: The Tiger Ace is bad design. It rewards a player that couldn´t hold his fuel point (getting a tank for no fuel) and it punishes a player that is able to keep his Tiger alife (crippling ressource penalty). This goes against two major aspects of CoH basics.

I'll simply say that not every unit is meant to be as effective on every mode. Just take a look at Ele/JT on 1v1 vs their performance on 2v2+.

The whole implementation of the TA was flawed since it's beginning. You "can't" really balance a vet3 tiger with increased HP + better MGs coming for no fuel (CoH2 =/= CoH). The TA design makes it a unit to be used and lost on games which can't endure more than 5-10mins. The mp burden you have is paying for the differential of fuel + veterancy and it's not 75%. It's 25% and actually means 75mp per min. The low mp overall is a result of your popcap.

The TA should had been a 1 time call vet 0 Tiger, with slight HP, sight and MG DPS increase. Command Panzer on top with some abilities focus around support opposed to the first version which had i win abilities such as TWP.

The strong part of the TA is the fuel part, a resource which becomes meaningless on 2v2+, the moment TA becomes available.

To me the TA and its penalties seems like another leftover from the original poor design of this doctrine, like the grantable veterancy ability that was later replaced with Stormtroopers. I'm not sure what the best solution would be though.

Compared to normal Tiger the Tiger ace has the following disadvantages:
1)Can not be replaced
2)Cp17 vs Cp13
3)Cost 720/260 vs 640/240
4)Can not vet

Only the first two points of these can be considered valid, as (3) is simply wrong and (4) does not make sense because the tank comes in with vet 3 -- that is why it is called an Ace.

IMHO Tiger Ace is one big exception in COH 2:

1. It is the only tank, which cost no fuel.
2. This unit affect on resources (all other exceptions were removerd 1-1.5 years ago. Like Soviet industry, OKW resource penalty, Ostheer extra ammo for fuel and etc.)
3. This unit has default 3 vet. All other units with default vet (Rifles from rifle doctrine, osttruppen from mobile defence doctrine, Panzer 4 J from Elite armored doctrine) were also removed. Even vet training from Elite Troops doctrine, which affected on veterancy, was removed.
4. This is the only call-in vechicle, which you can't recall-in.

It is issue in game design, not in balance.

Only the first two points of these can be considered valid, as (3) is simply wrong and (4) does not make sense because the tank comes in with vet 3 -- that is why it is called an Ace.

Well this mostly a name thing.

Tiger ACE is not the same as vet 3 Tiger. It has different stats.

The unit still can not vet.

Things would probably be allot better if the unit had a fuel cost and no penalty.

I would even considered allowing the unit to vet.

Well this mostly a name thing.

Tiger ACE is not the same as vet 3 Tiger. It has different stats.

The unit still can not vet.

It might have different stats, but its enhanced stats are a result of it having a veteran/Ace status, so you can't say it "can not vet".

It might have different stats, but its enhanced stats are a result of it having a veteran/Ace status, so you can't say it "can not vet".

Their might be some actual truth in that if the Tiger ACE was identical to vet 3 Tiger. It is not

They are different units with different stat, cost and CP. If one was to change the name to Wittmman's Tiger (for instance) it would look odd that the unit could not vet.

Their might be some actual truth in that if the Tiger ACE was identical to vet 3 Tiger. It is not

They are different units with different stat, cost and CP. If one was to change the name to Wittmman's Tiger (for instance) it would look odd that the unit could not vet.

I'm not sure how it is possible to continually miss the point of my reply, unless your objective is to troll here. The TA has better performance than the normal Tiger -- this means it is veteran. If you're looking for additional clues for this veteran status, the unit icon also has three stars above it. If a unit is already veteran, it is obvious it can't vet further.

If you don't like the kind of veterancy the TA has, that is not a basis for claiming it is not veteran, only that its veterancy does not suit you.

From what I know, you need to use the Tiger Ace to close out a game, or do good trades and lose it in a short time. If you keep it alive for a prolonged time without turning the tide, you will be at a net loss of control and territory.

So call it in, kill stuff with it and sacrifice it or win right away.

It is issue in game design, not in balance.

I know, the Tiger Ace is basically the last unit that comes out with veteran status while other similar units had already got removed. To be honest, it should get replace with something else as well (To finish the old business, I guess), maybe the King Tiger? (Consider it's Elite Troops Doctrine, may as well give them something differ from other Tiger doctrines). I think this would make the commander more appealing to all gamemodes.‎

However, hypothetically, if the King replace the Ace, I think with the high CP of 17, being more expensive than Tiger (720MP and 260 fuels) and temporary fuel lock (I don't think the MP should be reduce anymore, consider the moment you got it, you'll basically already struggle with MP), this commander won't become the only viable option. Again, just an idea, but I agreed with most people's opinions: The Tiger Ace is a flaw design now, so changes must be made? (Maybe not now since the Scope, but consider it for near future)‎

So call it in, kill stuff with it and sacrifice it or win right away.

Then might as well call it "Shock Tiger", not Tiger Ace. I know that's how it supposed to be used now, but doesn't it feel strange? Like, it's an Ace, and the effective way to use it is to sacrifice it after the initial shock. The resource penalties along with its status are the Ace's own curse. As sad as it is, it needs to get replace, and one of the options that seems most appealing would be the King Tiger, I guess? (To fit its "Elite" theme)‎

Just replace it with the King Tiger and everything is fine.
In some mods this was already done. (GG mod for example)

I'm not sure how it is possible to continually miss the point of my reply, unless your objective is to troll here. The TA has better performance than the normal Tiger -- this means it is veteran. If you're looking for additional clues for this veteran status, the unit icon also has three stars above it. If a unit is already veteran, it is obvious it can't vet further.

If you don't like the kind of veterancy the TA has, that is not a basis for claiming it is not veteran, only that its veterancy does not suit you.

Not sure why you get frustrated.

My point is that idea of "elite" behind elite doctrine is gone and the "Tiger ACE" is not a vetted Tiger.

I am under the impression that normal Tiger even becomes better offensively since it get +5 more range and less scatter by vet 2.

Look at it another way OKW PZIV or PZV are better for what ever reason (according to your theory because they are "veteran") but they can still vet and can achieve vet 5.

And this quite an interesting suggestion I read somewhere (sorry I can give credits), to allow the doctrine to achieve higher veterncny levels like 4 or 5.

My point is that idea of "elite" behind elite doctrine is gone

How is it gone if you get to deploy a veteran, advanced Tiger straight away without having to babysit it for veterancy? You pick the Elite Troops doctrine and get an elite unit, simple as that.

Also your comment that I originally replied to said it is a disadvantage of the TA that it "can't vet", which I said does not make sense because it is already veteran when it comes to the field.

If you don't like the abilities/improvements that come with its veterancy, you can say "it is a disadvantage of the TA that its veterancy is not as good as vet3 normal Tiger's in my opinion", but saying the TA "can't vet" is a statement that ignores the fact that it's already vetted.

Look at it another way OKW PZIV or PZV are better for what ever reason (according to your theory because they are "veteran")

No, they are not. Having better stats =/= veteran status. Veteran status is tied to the in-game mechanic of veterancy.

I don't have the commander, but i kinda understand the idea...

I think this could be a viable option, if the battle goes sour in the late game. Say, you lose your fuelpoints and can't recap, enemy tankrush seems imminent, oh no what do!?

Tiger Ace Hero Übermensch to the rescue!

It feels like it's Mr. Adolf H. mindset unit. It's all or nothing at all! You either win or lose with this unit, you can and will shock and awe with him! If he falls, all hope is lost. Or this hero will bring you victory with him.

Or hopefully at least regain the fuel, and continue the fight. His sacrifice will not be for nothing.

Just BECAUSE this unit doesn't follow all other units (irreplaceable call in, doesn't need fuel) it is interesting. When this wildcard is in play it's not impossible to get a powerful armor, even without access to fuel.

Interesting unit... It's ok that it has resource penalty. It makes it a very dangerous and high risk card to play

How is it gone if you get to deploy a veteran, advanced Tiger straight away without having to babysit it for veterancy? You pick the Elite Troops doctrine and get an elite unit, simple as that.

Also your comment that I originally replied to said it is a disadvantage of the TA that it "can't vet", which I said does not make sense because it is already veteran when it comes to the field.

If you don't like the abilities/improvements that come with its veterancy, you can say "it is a disadvantage of the TA that its veterancy is not as good as vet3 normal Tiger's in my opinion", but saying the TA "can't vet" is a statement that ignores the fact that it's already vetted.


No, they are not. Having better stats =/= veteran status. Veteran status is tied to the in-game mechanic of veterancy.

Will simply have to agree to disagree.

For you Tiger ACE is fully vetted unit for me it is not it is simply a different type of Tiger, the same way a OKW Panther is different type of Panther.

And generally I do not like that can not vet.