Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.5 Update

I am not quite sure if I understand u correctly. So with this change the best protection against HE artillery fire is to happily run around in the open and avoid cover at all costs because cover nearly always equals a tighter formation. Sounds a bit silly doesnt it?

Yellow cover offers no damage reduction vs. indirect fire, so its use is only recommended if you are fighting small arms.

can we decrease the elite vehicle crews upgrade cost for usf? Or out of scope?

edit:

also the penals sticky AT satchel deals heavy engine crits?

can we decrease the elite vehicle crews upgrade cost for usf? Or out of scope?

edit:

also the penals sticky AT satchel deals heavy engine crits?

For the time being, the absence of a bazooka on the m20 allows you to upgrade elite vehicle crews on that vehicle.

Penals AT satchel deals heavy engine damage if the tank falls below 10% health. For the heaviest vehicles (i.e., KT), 10% equals 128 health, which is basically one schreck shot. This crit thing was added for the first iteration of the AT satchel (at v1.2), where it was near impossible to hit anything with the satchel, and Penals only got 2 PTRS.

For the time being, the absence of a bazooka on the m20 allows you to upgrade elite vehicle crews on that vehicle.

Penals AT satchel deals heavy engine damage if the tank falls below 10% health. For the heaviest vehicles (i.e., KT), 10% equals 128 health, which is basically one schreck shot. This crit thing was added for the first iteration of the AT satchel (at v1.2), where it was near impossible to hit anything with the satchel, and Penals only got 2 PTRS.

thx for the clarification

For the time being, the absence of a bazooka on the m20 allows you to upgrade elite vehicle crews on that vehicle.

Penals AT satchel deals heavy engine damage if the tank falls below 10% health. For the heaviest vehicles (i.e., KT), 10% equals 128 health, which is basically one schreck shot. This crit thing was added for the first iteration of the AT satchel (at v1.2), where it was near impossible to hit anything with the satchel, and Penals only got 2 PTRS.

Smith ? Right now M20 feels too weak against sniper because of changes. I played I game against Hooligan, caught his sniper 60-80 % health near faymoville western VP and pursued him all they way back while still being at point blank range. Sniper died near his base on that red road cover there. It was really hard to kill him with m20 whitch shouldn´t be the case

Smith ? Right now M20 feels too weak against sniper because of changes. I played I game against Hooligan, caught his sniper 60-80 % health near faymoville western VP and pursued him all they way back while still being at point blank range. Sniper died near his base on that red road cover there. It was really hard to kill him with m20 whitch shouldn´t be the case

It depends.
1) What vet level was the m20? With the WBP, each vet level bestows massive improvements to MG DPS
2) You don't really need to close in to deal much more damage with the m20; the DPS curve is flatter now
3) M20 is a looooooot cheaper now
4) M15 now counters 222 really hard, instead of the other way around

1 & 2 are there so that a vet0 can't jump/wipe retreating squads from the get-go. This is similar to the treatment all other shock vehicles got. The philosophy here is that by requiring you to vet your vehicle before it gets to wipey-status, you are allowing your opponent to react. You can't get vet without using the vehicle, and you can't use the vehicle without showing your "cards" to the opponent.

This allows your opponent the option to play defensively, scrape some manpower up and then buy an AT gun, if that's what they wanted to do. At the same time, if they fail to counter the M20 (or other vehicles) in time (Vet3), e.g., because they got greedy, WBP vet3 M20 is a lot stronger than vet3 live M20.

Points 3 and 4 has to do with the fact that if M20 was a lot better, m20 spam would become the new meta.

Yellow cover offers no damage reduction vs. indirect fire, so its use is only recommended if you are fighting small arms.

if this is so why dont we increase the HE damage reduction of yellow cover?

it has always been the case. Being on the open increase your spacing so reducing the chance to get wipe by a single hit.

u mean because it has been silly we need to make it even more silly?

Cover is a fundamental part of coh gameplay. We should try to find solutions without diminishing the value of cover.

Wider formations are a good idea. But if moving in the open becomes even more preferable than to use cover we pervert the original idea of the cover system.

if this is so why dont we increase the HE damage reduction of yellow cover?

Because it adds depth to gameplay. Not all cover is created equal and having a player understand when it is important to be in cover vs not is really important.

Keep in mind there are four cover types (red, grey, yellow, and green). Red is negative but offers speed bonuses to some units. Grey is not bonus, unit is stock, but is actually better against flames. Yellow offers light arms fire but tends to clump up squads, I think, flames also get a damage bonus here. Green cover offers small arms protection and indirect fire protection, but gives bonuses to flames hitting units in it. Green is also capable of stopping rounds from vehicles so if they flank you and fire into the back of green cover the can wipe the squad in short order. This complication makes the game more interesting by forcing players to make real decisions about whether or not to use cover, and where to seek it out.

If in doubt, always go green cover in early game. Avoid green cover when tanks are flanking, and avoid yellow cover in the late game when indirect fire is plentiful. Keep infantry out of red cover at all times. Use grey cover to cross from cover to cover.

It depends.
1) What vet level was the m20? With the WBP, each vet level bestows massive improvements to MG DPS
2) You don't really need to close in to deal much more damage with the m20; the DPS curve is flatter now
3) M20 is a looooooot cheaper now
4) M15 now counters 222 really hard, instead of the other way around

1 & 2 are there so that a vet0 can't jump/wipe retreating squads from the get-go. This is similar to the treatment all other shock vehicles got. The philosophy here is that by requiring you to vet your vehicle before it gets to wipey-status, you are allowing your opponent to react. You can't get vet without using the vehicle, and you can't use the vehicle without showing your "cards" to the opponent.

This allows your opponent the option to play defensively, scrape some manpower up and then buy an AT gun, if that's what they wanted to do. At the same time, if they fail to counter the M20 (or other vehicles) in time (Vet3), e.g., because they got greedy, WBP vet3 M20 is a lot stronger than vet3 live M20.

Points 3 and 4 has to do with the fact that if M20 was a lot better, m20 spam would become the new meta.

If m20 is meant to hardcounter sniper once it gets on field otherwise it will get hardcountered by 222 and later axis tanks. How can I counter ostheer sniper when he have 222 guarding my m20 and will have 2 paks once I get sherman ? Also m15 isn´t all that good on the move right now so I don´t know how can I counter his sniper + 222 combo.

Another this is he will also have first pak by time I get M15 so once again he outbeats me. M20 doens´t have to be shock vehicle, it should be punishive vehicle. It should hardcounter lone sniper with 70% of health, it shouldn´t allow him to run half map back to base. Enemy should have grens nearby to counter my m20 and because m20 is no longer shock unit, it shouldnt be dealing to much damage to grens allowing enemy to get 222. Right now enemy can brainlessly retreat with his sniper without any support and yet almost save him. This schouldnt be the case. Because USA lack sniper, they should have some fast tool to hardcounter him. Even in vcoh USA had jeep whitch sucked against infantry, yet was able to kill the sniper with blink of your eye.

It depends.
1) What vet level was the m20? With the WBP, each vet level bestows massive improvements to MG DPS
2) You don't really need to close in to deal much more damage with the m20; the DPS curve is flatter now
3) M20 is a looooooot cheaper now
4) M15 now counters 222 really hard, instead of the other way around

1 & 2 are there so that a vet0 can't jump/wipe retreating squads from the get-go. This is similar to the treatment all other shock vehicles got. The philosophy here is that by requiring you to vet your vehicle before it gets to wipey-status, you are allowing your opponent to react. You can't get vet without using the vehicle, and you can't use the vehicle without showing your "cards" to the opponent.

This allows your opponent the option to play defensively, scrape some manpower up and then buy an AT gun, if that's what they wanted to do. At the same time, if they fail to counter the M20 (or other vehicles) in time (Vet3), e.g., because they got greedy, WBP vet3 M20 is a lot stronger than vet3 live M20.

Points 3 and 4 has to do with the fact that if M20 was a lot better, m20 spam would become the new meta.

Not sure if this is the place to discuss this, but I still think the 70 muni armored skirts upgraded on the m20 is silly. Is that out of scope?

Edit: by silly I mean that it should just come stock, or have a massive cost reduction.

For the time being, the absence of a bazooka on the m20 allows you to upgrade elite vehicle crews on that vehicle.

Penals AT satchel deals heavy engine damage if the tank falls below 10% health. For the heaviest vehicles (i.e., KT), 10% equals 128 health, which is basically one schreck shot. This crit thing was added for the first iteration of the AT satchel (at v1.2), where it was near impossible to hit anything with the satchel, and Penals only got 2 PTRS.

For the time being, the absence of a bazooka on the m20 allows you to upgrade elite vehicle crews on that vehicle.

upgrade elite vehicle crews on that vehicle.

elite vehicle crews

elite vehicle crews

It would be actually good to drive in and kill weapon teams out of buildings if it actually gave you 4 Thompsons for that Muni.

How can I counter ostheer sniper when he have 222 guarding my m20 and will have 2 paks once I get sherman ?

I feel like you're glossing over an entire games worth of decisions and engagements with that question. But I agree with you in the sense that the 222 has been balanced around no-one ever using the M20. I think the real issue though is with the 222, not the sniper or the M20. Making the M20 super capable of killing snipers won't help overall if it's still a throw against 222s. In fact, it just makes the 222 even more of a necessity for Ostheer.

Also m15 isn´t all that good on the move right now so I don´t know how can I counter his sniper + 222 combo.

Rifles, mortars, weapon rack. You're saying 'sniper + 222 combo' but I feel like there are MGs at work here. Otherwise I don't know how you're not dominating the map with rifles. You've got to keep in mind that USF T0 can handle anything Ostheer T0-T2 can field.

I think your mistake is going for LT tier. I think your opponents know you are testing LT tier and are adjusting their strategy accordingly. LT just doesn't offer enough to what USF needs. Again: USF T0 can handle anything Ostheer T0-T2 can field.

I'll note that while the USF mortar may now have shorter range, as a result its also more of a lure for the 222 and sniper to try and focus fire. Bait that 222 + sniper combo into your superior infantry forces. If the ostheer also has a mortar to counter your mortar, your opponent has no infantry.

But I agree that the 222 and the sniper are probably the two hardest units for USF T0 to handle. It would be nice for the M20 to be able to fill this role, but the current design of the 222 really doesn't account for the existence of non-Stuart vehicles from USF.

Ultimately: Take advantage of the fact that the 222 takes damage from small arms fire and take note that it's currently designed to hard counter light vehicles. (It's a bigger fuel investment too. You could probably tech nades safely without throwing off your fuel advantage.) The most effective usage of the LT tier in my experience has always been the M20 mine.

Even in vcoh USA had jeep whitch sucked against infantry, yet was able to kill the sniper with blink of your eye.

A sniper in cover could stand in front of a jeep, point blank, for a long arse time.

Show Spoiler

Jeeps (and motorbikes) revealed cloaked units. That was their function. Then pretty much any other unit shot the revealed sniper.

It would be actually good to drive in and kill weapon teams out of buildings if it actually gave you 4 Thompsons for that Muni.

have you tested them? They are really worse now. Even with 2 thompsons

have you tested them? They are really worse now. Even with 2 thompsons

You get two Thompsons with that upgrade? LOL. Why even bother? Especially since some pio squad'll probably just run by and jack your vehicle. 2 thompsons... I mean, on a normal unit that would be decent, but vehicle crews die faster osttruppen.

If m20 is meant to hardcounter sniper once it gets on field otherwise it will get hardcountered by 222 and later axis tanks. How can I counter ostheer sniper when he have 222 guarding my m20 and will have 2 paks once I get sherman ? Also m15 isn´t all that good on the move right now so I don´t know how can I counter his sniper + 222 combo.

Another this is he will also have first pak by time I get M15 so once again he outbeats me. M20 doens´t have to be shock vehicle, it should be punishive vehicle. It should hardcounter lone sniper with 70% of health, it shouldn´t allow him to run half map back to base. Enemy should have grens nearby to counter my m20 and because m20 is no longer shock unit, it shouldnt be dealing to much damage to grens allowing enemy to get 222. Right now enemy can brainlessly retreat with his sniper without any support and yet almost save him. This schouldnt be the case. Because USA lack sniper, they should have some fast tool to hardcounter him. Even in vcoh USA had jeep whitch sucked against infantry, yet was able to kill the sniper with blink of your eye.

Snipers

We feel that the Sniper’s cloak ability is over performing, making them extremely difficult to counter with infantry. To address this issues we have made the following changes:

When firing a shot or using an offensive ability when not camouflaged, the unit will be unable to return to camouflage for 10 seconds
Snipers cannot cloak until out of combat for 3 seconds

A sniper is a big investment in mp and popcap and a m20 already threaten it once it hits the field. With the price increase on the 222, the windows of opportunity to kill the sniper right of the bat is bigger.
I'm also uncomfortable with the terminology "hard counter" with the sniper, do you think you should kill any sniper once you get a m20 just because it is the designated hard counter?
You'll still need to flank it with different unit + your m20 to shot it down.

Last but not least, if you see someone going dual pak, don't build a sherman. You're pretty sure he is going to stale for a Tiger.
So If you have it already, use your sherman as flanker and to deny lone cappers and build an extra RM + nade maybe, he is probably low on AI. Also be ready for the tiger.