Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.5 Update

This easily happen every infantry in the current state. Try Brits Tommies put in cover and fight versus MG, covered with mortar. After one shot better you leave the cover, than risking sqad wipe. At first I was angry only on Ost mortar, but they do it all.

im not talking about when in cover, im talking about their standard "spread out" formation, its still so tight that all models will be hit by a mortar shell.

im not talking about when in cover, im talking about their standard "spread out" formation, its still so tight that all models will be hit by a mortar shell.

Are you sure you are running WBP?

The spread-out formation for 4-men squads should be now be spread enough so that it barely fits inside a Sturmtiger shell radius. A mortar shell that lands in the middle of the formation, will not even scratch the guys at the opposite sides of the formation.

When the squad is hiding in a crater, their formation is indeed more compact, to allow for all members to barely fit in-cover, and yes a lucky shell would hit all models. However, you shouldn't be using yellow cover when facing mortars.

Are you sure you are running WBP?

The spread-out formation for 4-men squads should be now be spread enough so that it barely fits inside a Sturmtiger shell radius. A mortar shell that lands in the middle of the formation, will not even scratch the guys at the opposite sides of the formation.

When the squad is hiding in a crater, their formation is indeed more compact, to allow for all members to barely fit in-cover, and yes a lucky shell would hit all models. However, you shouldn't be using yellow cover when facing mortars.

Funny, can't use green cover either due to all the flamethrowers on penals.

I'm not making a judgement on 5 man Grenadier squads, pro or con but if they were to be implemented (big if I know) why not tie it to vet like USF's RE instead of a global upgrade?

This way not all Grens would automatically get 5 men and it would reward squad preservation into the late game, which is the name of the game.

Just a thought.

I'm not making a judgement on 5 man Grenadier squads, pro or con but if they were to be implemented (big if I know) why not tie it to vet like USF's RE instead of a global upgrade?

This way not all Grens would automatically get 5 men and it would reward squad preservation into the late game, which is the name of the game.

Just a thought.

I don't think 5 men gren squads are a good idea. We all know what three gren squads with lmg42s a-moving can do. If they get a 5th man, they get too powerful.

I rather think that the other infantry units need to be towed down to the effectiveness of Grens. Mind you, riflemen and tommies should still be better, but only slightly. This goes for conscripts too.

I don't think 5 men gren squads are a good idea. We all know what three gren squads with lmg42s a-moving can do. If they get a 5th man, they get too powerful.

I rather think that the other infantry units need to be towed down to the effectiveness of Grens. Mind you, riflemen and tommies should still be better, but only slightly. This goes for conscripts too.

Weren't you gonna uninstall? MVGame

Weren't you gonna uninstall? MVGame

#SAVAGE

Weren't you gonna uninstall? MVGame

I did.

But just like you, I will still come on this forum without playing the game itself

I did.

But just like you, I will still come on this forum without playing the game itself

Unlike you I don't bitch and whine about balance because I know I've got nothing valuable to contribute. Something you still not realise

Hi Community,

Quick question, how many supply points extra can we expect at the end of the 1.5 patch?
Is it set on a per game basis?

I did.
But just like you, I will still come on this forum without playing the game itself

Unlike you I don't bitch and whine about balance because I know I've got nothing valuable to contribute. Something you still not realise

Get a room already....

Balance team, first of all: keep up the good work! and now your favourite headache subject:

1- resistance to changes to penal batt. are based on FLAVOR (thx A_E)
- thematic flavor (penals with better guns, penals replacing mainline inf.)
- play style flavor (T1 should be risk reward, no AT etc.)

2 - The current changes make the penal battalions too multi role and complex with an internal
tech tree of their own.

suggested change

T1 soviets

- re-brands/replaces penal battalion to frontovik conscripts
- penal battalions get moved to the NKVD docrine as call-in unit
- unlocks PTRS upgrade for combat engineers (x2)
- optional rename HQ build conscripts to "fresh conscripts"

frontovik conscripts

equipment
- 3 bolt action rifles
- 3 SVT automatic rifles
(this allows for conscript upgrades to slot in)
or
- 6 SVT automatic rifles (just penals with different skin)

upgrades and abilities
- frontovik conscripts cannot merge
- optional - DP28 machine gun (x2) upgrade, possible unlocked with tech (owning 2 tech structures?).
- optional - regular grenade

doctrinal/tech upgrades
frontovik conscripts share the doctrinal & tech upgrades with regular HQ build (fresh) conscripts
- molotov and AT nades from tech upgrade
- ppsh (3x) from commanders
- PTRS from tank hunters doctrine
- conscript repair kits from doctrine
- hit the dirt
- etc

veterancy
- better veterency then regular "fresh conscripts"

Motivation

The 'elite' penal battalion will be changed/swapped with a better mainline infantry that shares the benefits of the HQ conscripts with tech and doctrinal upgrades. and provides the soviet player with a better AI mainline infantry with utility. regular conscripts are still useful for merge and support.
For stop-gap AT it is possible to upgrade PTRS on your combat engineers. This provides a tactical choice where the soviet player needs to weight in if he wants to forgo his minesweeper of flamer upgrade. There is also synergy with the scout car as PTRS engineers can ride them as mobile light AT (marcuscar).

The changes will open up less used commanders. Both commanders with abilities that that add utility and upgrades to the conscript archetype, and also to the forgotten NKVD commander.

I feel the changes would take away the resistance caused by flavor (I't would for me, and think alot of other players as well). Also the changes would match the original design intention from RELIC. The names and icons for fresh conscripts and frontovik conscripts are in the soviet campaign. The penal battalions where intended as elite (doctrinal) infantry in the first iterations.

The original T1 design intended to be a structure that gave you access to elite units; guards, shocks or penal troops. This changed during the development cycle (call-in units) and caused the awkward position of the T1 structure. by buffing penals to elite troop level you conflict with the original design and allowing the soviet player to have access to two different elite units.

The change also removes a flamer equipped spammable 6 man squad from the faction and moves the non-doctrinal stopgap AT to a more fragile 4 man squad.

There are models and voice files available for the suggested change.

The penal battalions where intended as elite (doctrinal) infantry in the first iterations.

I don't remember this going back as far as beta... I can never think of a time they were doctrinal. Powerful, 360mp long range units, yes, but not doctrinal.

The original T1 design intended to be a structure that gave you access to elite units; guards, shocks or penal troops. This changed during the development cycle (call-in units) and caused the awkward position of the T1 structure. by buffing penals to elite troop level you conflict with the original design and allowing the soviet player to have access to two different elite units.

What I remember was Penal Battalions being replaced in T1 by Guards or Shocks once you chose a doctrine. In the early days Penals were often meant to be replaced, Guards and Shocks were meant to be built from T1.

Then the call-in switch happened, sniper clowncar removed, and penals were adjusted. (And then again, and again, and I think again. I can't remember if the reversed flamer+PPSh upgrade was just a preview patch or not.)

But quite frankly, I'm not sure what the point of having t0 conscripts would be with this version of T1. Especially if this proposed unit gets all the conscript upgrades and doctrinal abilities.

I don't remember this going back as far as beta... I can never think of a time they were doctrinal. Powerful, 360mp long range units, yes, but not doctrinal.

You are correct. I should have phrased this better: I believe in the drawing board stages they intended to have COH1 style doctrine choices: Shock, Guard and NKVD. They where never iterations and I only assumed that Penal Batt. would be doctrinal units on that stage of development.

What I remember was Penal Battalions being replaced in T1 by Guards or Shocks once you chose a doctrine. In the early days Penals were often meant to be replaced, Guards and Shocks were meant to be built from T1.

Thx for the correction. This was indeed the mechanic.

But quite frankly, I'm not sure what the point of having t0 conscripts would be with this version of T1. Especially if this proposed unit gets all the conscript upgrades and doctrinal abilities.

A valid point. But from first balance scope mandate the intention was always to make T1 a viable option compared to T2. Your reaction confirms that there is value in T1, because it provides you with something you want more then t0 conscripts.

The focus on penal battalions derives from making T1 as attractive as T2. If you choose T2, regular conscript are still your mainline infantry, with a motivation to back-tech. When building T1 you will only use the cheaper fresh conscripts to merge and reinforce the front.

but I do feel that it makes for less unit diversity. and a complete replacement for a unit is boring. (might as wel have an upgrade icon on regular conscripts then as in campaign).

Thank you for the feedback and corrections ZombiFrancis!

You know, I do agree with the notion of T1 infantry benefiting from global upgrades though. I just don't think they should be conscript ones.

Penals starting with rifles, and upgrading to SVTs isn't a bad idea for a global upgrade. A single (or two) DP-28 isn't either. Grenades (and/or satchels) works too.

Show Spoiler

Soviets strength lie in their ability to spread out and capture the map. They use that early map control to be able to tech quickly. Since the only real side techs for Soviets are molotovs and AT nades, teching to T3 is the primary mission of Soviets.

The weakness of T1 is kind of the fact that it slows the rate that units hit the field due to otherwise fielding a particularly useful and capable t0 unit that scales well into at least 2 CPs.

I found a bug. When you set your luchs on "attack vehicles only" it doesn't appear any icon over the vehicle (i don't know if it happens in any other light vehicle).

PS: I think penals should be given 2xPTRS and the sticky satchel and conscripts should get 3 SVTs or PPSh-41s to scale better (if they get the PPSh-41 just put the SVTs on the doctrines that have the conscript upgrade). This way you can play without guards (penals work as AT infantry) and without shocks (conscripts work as AI units).

Western forces are all around better than eastern forces. Both early game and late game.

Ostheer and soviets are outdated factions with half their commanders useless.

Balance team, first of all: keep up the good work! and now your favourite headache subject:

1- resistance to changes to penal batt. are based on FLAVOR (thx A_E)
- thematic flavor (penals with better guns, penals replacing mainline inf.)
- play style flavor (T1 should be risk reward, no AT etc.)

2 - The current changes make the penal battalions too multi role and complex with an internal
tech tree of their own.

suggested change

T1 soviets

- re-brands/replaces penal battalion to frontovik conscripts
- penal battalions get moved to the NKVD docrine as call-in unit
- unlocks PTRS upgrade for combat engineers (x2)
- optional rename HQ build conscripts to "fresh conscripts"

frontovik conscripts

equipment
- 3 bolt action rifles
- 3 SVT automatic rifles
(this allows for conscript upgrades to slot in)
or
- 6 SVT automatic rifles (just penals with different skin)

upgrades and abilities
- frontovik conscripts cannot merge
- optional - DP28 machine gun (x2) upgrade, possible unlocked with tech (owning 2 tech structures?).
- optional - regular grenade

doctrinal/tech upgrades
frontovik conscripts share the doctrinal & tech upgrades with regular HQ build (fresh) conscripts
- molotov and AT nades from tech upgrade
- ppsh (3x) from commanders
- PTRS from tank hunters doctrine
- conscript repair kits from doctrine
- hit the dirt
- etc

veterancy
- better veterency then regular "fresh conscripts"

Motivation

The 'elite' penal battalion will be changed/swapped with a better mainline infantry that shares the benefits of the HQ conscripts with tech and doctrinal upgrades. and provides the soviet player with a better AI mainline infantry with utility. regular conscripts are still useful for merge and support.
For stop-gap AT it is possible to upgrade PTRS on your combat engineers. This provides a tactical choice where the soviet player needs to weight in if he wants to forgo his minesweeper of flamer upgrade. There is also synergy with the scout car as PTRS engineers can ride them as mobile light AT (marcuscar).

The changes will open up less used commanders. Both commanders with abilities that that add utility and upgrades to the conscript archetype, and also to the forgotten NKVD commander.

I feel the changes would take away the resistance caused by flavor (I't would for me, and think alot of other players as well). Also the changes would match the original design intention from RELIC. The names and icons for fresh conscripts and frontovik conscripts are in the soviet campaign. The penal battalions where intended as elite (doctrinal) infantry in the first iterations.

The original T1 design intended to be a structure that gave you access to elite units; guards, shocks or penal troops. This changed during the development cycle (call-in units) and caused the awkward position of the T1 structure. by buffing penals to elite troop level you conflict with the original design and allowing the soviet player to have access to two different elite units.

The change also removes a flamer equipped spammable 6 man squad from the faction and moves the non-doctrinal stopgap AT to a more fragile 4 man squad.

There are models and voice files available for the suggested change.

That's a great post and a great idea.

But, it's just too much for the scope of the balance patch i think. ADD it on a new Soviet cmdr !

Just add the stickie bomb global upgrade to the version of penals we are currently playing with (without the mod) and that enough. The rest of the mod 1.5 is great.

Please get that patch out asap !!!!



P.S. i usually play Sov. in 4v4 automatch.

When the squad is hiding in a crater, their formation is indeed more compact, to allow for all members to barely fit in-cover, and yes a lucky shell would hit all models. However, you shouldn't be using yellow cover when facing mortars.

I am not quite sure if I understand u correctly. So with this change the best protection against HE artillery fire is to happily run around in the open and avoid cover at all costs because cover nearly always equals a tighter formation. Sounds a bit silly doesnt it?

I am not quite sure if I understand u correctly. So with this change the best protection against HE artillery fire is to happily run around in the open and avoid cover at all costs because cover nearly always equals a tighter formation. Sounds a bit silly doesnt it?

it has always been the case. Being on the open increase your spacing so reducing the chance to get wipe by a single hit.

Unlike you I don't bitch and whine about balance because I know I've got nothing valuable to contribute. Something you still not realise

Give me some time