Commandos with WBP.

Commandos in the live are already kind of a meh elite unit in terms of actual shooting things performance, but can use their stealth to great advantage by ambushing weapons teams or retreating squads, or lobbing a bundled nade (because that's basically what the light gammon bomb is, the pgren's bundled nade)into a garrisoned mg. But they get hit a lot harder by the current stealth changes. This is due to the fact that unlike all the other units that utilize camo, except normal partisans, they HAVE to have the advantage from camo to function effectively. For those unaware, previously, you could move them across limited open space even if they would break cover for an extremely short period of time because as long as you had hold fire on, they would re-camouflage upon hitting cover. This may seem a bit abusive or OP, but this also gives the enemy player time to react since they spotted your commandos anyway. They rely on closing away from enemy fire with camo since they get no armor and no RA bonuses from vet (vanilla commandos have .7-something RA IIRC) which means that they are less durable than vetted riflemen, indeed, most vetted troops, by a large margin, but need to be close to deal damage, and they rely on using their ambush bonus to have any sort of advantage over anything but troops armed with stock rifles because their suppressed stens are absolutely horrendous on their own. But, if they break camo for one second with the wbp camo changes, they can no longer camouflage, leaving them free to be shot at and suppressed, which means they must have totally continuous cover and not come out of that cover at all during movement within enemy range.

Yes, you can just give them double brens (for 120 munitions) and use them like mainline infantry, but you can give the USF major double 1919s and say the same (point is, that's not either units intended role, and they both suffer in different ways for it).

That's my take on it, thoughts?

It's really exciting to finally have this launched, we've been working on it for about a month now.

Just please bare in mind that since this patch was under official direction of Relic we were very limited and only able go make changes along the specific scopes of Light Tanks/Vehicles, Squad Formations & Clumping, USF Mortar, Penals & Guards, and Wehrmacht Infantry Scaling. So please leave feedback to specifically those changes and not about all the other priority issues that need changing too.

Yes there's so many more issues that need fixing, and this patch will have some consequences of its own, but it's certainly a huge step forward. If this patch goes well as all is smooth, we might be able to do more of these down the line.

Out of scope of the patch

You are supposed to use them just like before. They are simply not overpowered any more so you have to think harder in order to wipe something. These changes were aimed mostly against unit like this one and their rampaging wipes.

Note that their ambush bonus has been bugfixed and applies properly now. This makes them pretty damn strong for those 5 seconds.

The downside is that you now have to wait for 25 seconds out of combat to be eligible for the ambush bonus. When bugfixing Ambush I gave a provisionary long-duration value, so that the bugfix does not break commandos. Unfortunately, modifying that value is out of scope.

On the plus side, you get to see a lot less of random sprinting which kills your moving DPS.

Note that their ambush bonus has been bugfixed and applies properly now. This makes them pretty damn strong for those 5 seconds.

The downside is that you now have to wait for 25 seconds out of combat to be eligible for the ambush bonus. When bugfixing Ambush I gave a provisionary long-duration value, so that the bugfix does not break commandos. Unfortunately, modifying that value is out of scope.

On the plus side, you get to see a lot less of random sprinting which kills your moving DPS.

That's definitely good to hear. Random sprinting as in the squad randomly picks up camo in combat then gets the sprint+acc bonus while they're fighting?

You are supposed to use them just like before. They are simply not overpowered any more so you have to think harder in order to wipe something. These changes were aimed mostly against unit like this one and their rampaging wipes.

They haven't really been no-brain wipe machines since the stens had mg42 firerate, so I don't really know what you're talking about. Have you ever tried using commandos? Lot harder than obers or even falls.

Out of scope of the patch

Not quite out of scope of the patch, since stealth for all units got overhauled. If they, say, took away camo from the raketen, they would probably buff it somehow to compensate instead of saying "out of scope" (not a really good example, but you get what I mean). And even if it is, I just want to put that out there.

They haven't really been no-brain wipe machines since the stens had mg42 firerate, so I don't really know what you're talking about. Have you ever tried using commandos? Lot harder than obers or even falls.

Sure I did. The most amazing results could be achived in places like southern VP on kholodny, where you have plenty of cover near narrow passages. All you had to do in order to wipe a capping squad was either stepping out of cover and killing it with stens or planting a demo on VP and waiting with auto fire off. Both wiped most squads immidiately, in some cases, like sturmpio, you could use only stens, or for bigger squads like volks you sometimes didn't manage to kill everything with a demo and had to wipe the rest with stens. But for 4 men squad you didn't even have to waste muni for demo or nade. Free wipes all over.

Sure I did. The most amazing results could be achived in places like southern VP on kholodny, where you have plenty of cover near narrow passages. All you had to do in order to wipe a capping squad was either stepping out of cover and killing it with stens or planting a demo on VP and waiting with auto fire off. Both wiped most squads immidiately, in some cases, like sturmpio, you could use only stens, or for bigger squads like volks you sometimes didn't manage to kill everything with a demo and had to wipe the rest with stens. But for 4 men squad you didn't even have to waste muni for demo or nade. Free wipes all over.

Well yeah sure if your opponent is brain dead practically everything is free wipes. Demo charges are a bit different, but that isn't the point of the thread. Also, your scenarios, while definitely valid and a good use of commandos, are both defensive. What happens when you get any to assault a position but your commandos on hold fire get revealed halfway there? Or even while you try to move them to a flank to do so and they get engaged with multiple squads because their camo breaks?

Well yeah sure if your opponent is brain dead practically everything is free wipes. Demo charges are a bit different, but that isn't the point of the thread. Also, your scenarios, while definitely valid and a good use of commandos, are both defensive. What happens when you get any to assault a position but your commandos on hold fire get revealed halfway there? Or even while you try to move them to a flank to do so and they get engaged with multiple squads because their camo breaks?

I think my opponents would be very dissatisfied by being called brain dead. And they sure would be right. It is true that my scenarios are defensive. This is the main point of camoed squad. To creep into position unseen, wait for right moment and then attack. Not to run frontally into enemy or shoot in long firefights. They are not mainline infantry and are ment to be kind of situational, although it is not situational if you plan well in advance.

The correct way to use them in attack would be creeping behind enemy position, far enough not to be scouted and wait giving your forces vision. Then you have both better accurancy for your indirect fire and better idea of enemy positions to attack frontally or from a flank with sappers and IS. When enemy troops are already in the fight with your main forces and cant go out of cover you step in with your commandos from behind and turn the tide. Opponent didn't expect this so he may be vulnerable for wipes and one wipe can be a game changer. You can also wipe on retreat with both stens and gammon bombs.

Generally the whole point of camo changes is so that camo units need careful planning, understanding of mechanics and possibly support from other units instead of going on rampage on their own. If you can single handly win a match controlling only one squad at a time the game becomes more of a MOBA than RTS.

I think my opponents would be very dissatisfied by being called brain dead. And they sure would be right. It is true that my scenarios are defensive. This is the main point of camoed squad. To creep into position unseen, wait for right moment and then attack. Not to run frontally into enemy or shoot in long firefights. They are not mainline infantry and are ment to be kind of situational, although it is not situational if you plan well in advance.

The correct way to use them in attack would be creeping behind enemy position, far enough not to be scouted and wait giving your forces vision. Then you have both better accurancy for your indirect fire and better idea of enemy positions to attack frontally or from a flank with sappers and IS. When enemy troops are already in the fight with your main forces and cant go out of cover you step in with your commandos from behind and turn the tide. Opponent didn't expect this so he may be vulnerable for wipes and one wipe can be a game changer. You can also wipe on retreat with both stens and gammon bombs.

Generally the whole point of camo changes is so that camo units need careful planning, understanding of mechanics and possibly support from other units instead of going on rampage on their own. If you can single handly win a match controlling only one squad at a time the game becomes more of a MOBA than RTS.

This is exactly how I use commandos in an offensive capacity. My gripe with the new camo changes is that it is now way more difficult to move the commandos into a position where they can come support the attacking force in a timely manner, since if they break camo within enemy sightlines for just an instant, they will be unable to return to camo, and must either retreat or try to take on the whole enemy defensive position themselves (not that any good commander would attempt that). Commandos already suffer from high costs, inability to effectively wage convential warfare (fight as mainline inf), inaccessibility (doctrinal and needs terrible gliders) and general 18min+ squishiness due to not having any RA vet bonuses. I never, ever use commandos like shocks or tommy rangers, because as you said, they don't work that way. I just want you to know I still don't want mindless, invincible wipe machines or anything, and understand how commandos work. I just think that the changes to stealth were sort of an unneeded indirect nerf to commandos.

Also, apart from right after release (when they were blatantly op) commandos could never really just run around mindlessly roflstomping units.

In response to my comment about them being brain dead, this is because all you need to avoid being wiped by commandos is to retreat before you hit 1-2 models, and even then you may be able to save the squad with even one man left, since stens are a close range weapon, with pretty horrendous dps beyond spitting distance. My point is that if you stand on top of a grenade, you're squad's gonna get wiped. If you sit in a commando kill zone, your squad's gonna get wiped. Both are fairly avoidable, and punish sending squads off and neglecting them for that long. Demos are a different story, and could possibly use some changes (not really sure how I stand on that issue).

This is exactly how I use commandos in an offensive capacity. My gripe with the new camo changes is that it is now way more difficult to move the commandos into a position where they can come support the attacking force in a timely manner, since if they break camo within enemy sightlines for just an instant, they will be unable to return to camo, and must either retreat or try to take on the whole enemy defensive position themselves (not that any good commander would attempt that). Commandos already suffer from high costs, inability to effectively wage convential warfare (fight as mainline inf), inaccessibility (doctrinal and needs terrible gliders) and general 18min+ squishiness due to not having any RA vet bonuses. I never, ever use commandos like shocks or tommy rangers, because as you said, they don't work that way. I just want you to know I still don't want mindless, invincible wipe machines or anything, and understand how commandos work. I just think that the changes to stealth were sort of an unneeded indirect nerf to commandos.

Nevertheless, this sounds pretty much like a nobrainer option to me. You are still able to creep up to an enemy postion. The only downside is, if they are getting spotted AND in combat you have to disengage and wait for 25 seconds to be able to try it again. Especially the "it is now harder" part is intended I guess. This makes it more micro dependend, thus relies at your personal skill. With the same arguments you could start a threat about for example OH sniper "it is too squishy and relies at the camo due to its low viability. Now it is much harder (for me) to wipe entire RM" or any other unit using camo. Also this change makes the situation more realistic (I know the game is far beyond immersion and realism). In case a sqaud is getting spotted, for example in a crater, the enemy nows its location. Even if the enemy lose LOS with the squad, he still knows the gerneral direction of its location and where to aim his gun. The squad now needs to disengage and try to infiltrate the position from another postion again.

Commandos are crap, 440 Mp for a gammon bomb? and once they get revealed they are dead really? just remove gammon bomb, give them a normal nade and better health to survive

Nevertheless, this sounds pretty much like a nobrainer option to me. You are still able to creep up to an enemy postion. The only downside is, if they are getting spotted AND in combat you have to disengage and wait for 25 seconds to be able to try it again. Especially the "it is now harder" part is intended I guess. This makes it more micro dependend, thus relies at your personal skill. With the same arguments you could start a threat about for example OH sniper "it is too squishy and relies at the camo due to its low viability. Now it is much harder (for me) to wipe entire RM" or any other unit using camo. Also this change makes the situation more realistic (I know the game is far beyond immersion and realism). In case a sqaud is getting spotted, for example in a crater, the enemy nows its location. Even if the enemy lose LOS with the squad, he still knows the gerneral direction of its location and where to aim his gun. The squad now needs to disengage and try to infiltrate the position from another postion again.

Yes, I suppose you are right, but commandos were already very micro dependent compared to many other units. The sniper comparison, while I see what you are saying, isn't really the best because snipers (and pretty much all other units with camo except partisans) stay at long range, unlike commandos, who rely on camo to close with the enemy. Although, I do want to give them another go on the wbp preview.