why imo Penal are flawed by design.

It has been argued that Penal follow the Pg design. Semi Elite infantry specialized in one role and good at it. But they actually are not because there are fundamental difference to these 2 units.

• Timing. Pg arrive after min 5 Penal arrive before min 1. That means that Penal become the core of Soviet army while far Pgs its far more complicated.
  
  
• POP. Pgs have a Pop of 9 Penal of 7, being more spamable.
  
  
• Price. Pg cost 340 Penals 300, being more spamable.
  
  
• Bleed. Pg cost more to reinforce especially if Penal use merge.
  
  
• Staying Power. Pg have to retreat after losing 1-2 model (especially if they shreck) Penal can stay much longer especially if merged is used.
  
  
• Relative positioning. Penal will beat enemy mainline infantry at all ranges, Pg will lose at far. Pg are forced to close in Penal are not.
  

If Penal are to modeled like Pg they should have a POP of 9, become unable to be merged similar to Partisans, and hit the field later. Else Pg should become available from T1 and have a pop of 7-8.

It has also been argued that Penal are modeled after Riflemen and are fine since riflemen are fine. That is not the case imo either.

• Riflemen is unit that is OP because the whole faction designed is based on them and they where fine before the introduction of the mortar. Now they should be toned down and lose the smoke ability. Else USF will continue to be one of the strongest Factions.
  
  
• Penal are currently more powerful than riflemen at spawn. They have more HP and more firepower
  
  
• Relative positioning.In September 9th, 2014 mainline infantry where balanced against each other:
  "Riflemen
  Performs moderately at all ranges; excels against other rifled units at short-mid
  Vulnerable at long ranges
  Versus Grenadiers
  Slightly advantaged at long ranges
  Advantaged at mid ranges
  Advantaged at short ranges
  Versus Sturmpioneers
  Advantaged at long ranges
  Disadvantaged at mid ranges
  Disadvantaged at short ranges"
  Penal totally ignore this balance being able to beat both VG and Gren at all ranges and forcing the use of HMG.
  
  
• PTRS require no tech cost contrary to bazookas. Going T1 save 10 fuel and actually give you earlier access to vehicles.
  
  
• The tech tree, call in units and late game of Soviet is completely different so just because riflemen "work" (they do no actually they are OP)does not mean that turning Penal into riflemen will also work.
  
  
• Bleed. Again merge and also snipers which soviet can counter with their own sniper or the m3.
  

If Penal are meant to follow Riflemen model they should lose much of their punch. They should follow the mainline infantry balance model and become weak at a specific range. Their PTRS should have a tech cost attached to them. they should not have access to flamers.

Imo Penals are currently badly designed:
They are are not as fragile as people claim because they have 6 entities and even Osttuppen with target size of 1.25!!! are more durable then Grenadiers.

The currently enjoy the benefits of both worlds (semi elite/core infantry) with any of the disadvantages...

Flamers are bad on 6 men squads, AT weapon with guaranteed 60 deflection damage vs super heavy at range 60 are bad on 6 men squads. If they are to have access to those weapon they should simply become either 4 or 5 men squads.

What I have suggested is to turn them into cheap infantry. It is actually Soviets luck as faction and what suit Penals thematically.

The design is similar, but all the values like pop, cost and arrival time are smaller just becouse they are less effective in each role, especially the AT one.

Penals, as their names suggest, if you ask me, should be cheap throwaway infantry that could be spammed a lot.

I mean, why in the hell would you give better weapons to infantry who are serving in labor units basically because of crimes they've committed than to give those same better weapons to the Conscripts or Streltsy or whatever?

I mean, just make the Penals into like an 8 man squad or something, of which only 4 or 5 guys are armed and give them an upgrade that allows them to arm the rest of the squad with rifles, like in EF.

Give the Conscripts a few upgrades like SVT package of the old penals, AT rifles and either DPs or PPShs, or hell alright they'll be replacing Guards and Shocks with the last 2 upgrades so just SVTs and AT rifles then, scaling? No problem, Soviets can't bitch about their shitty mainline infantry anymore.

Also, give the Penals make shift molotov cocktails and give F1 grenades to the Conscripts, and we remove the satchel charge bs altogether.

Or, give them to the Combat Engineers through and upgrade or something.

The design is similar, but all the values like pop, cost and arrival time are smaller just becouse they are less effective in each role, especially the AT one.

Actually their are better than Pg, they are better in AI because they beat Gren and VG at all ranges, because they are cheaper, because they hit the field earlier.

They are better at AT because PG need to retreat earlier or risk dropping a shreck that is simply too powerful in a 6 men squad...they also have guaranteed 60 deflection damage vs heavy tanks at range 40 and have snare.

If so power units are to arrive this early move Pgs to T1 have cost 280/pop 7 and come with 2k98 2 MP44 and lock their upgrade behind T2. The shock value of Penal is far more than the shock value of current Pg that are trying simply cope by the time they hit the field.

I would like to see grenadiers' lmg, rifle nade, faust and panzer grenadiers' super grenade, double shrecks and volks' flame nade, faust and stgs and strumpioneers' shreck having side tech cost if penals' ptrs upgrade requires a side tech cost also.

Actually their are better than Pg, they are better in AI because they beat Gren and VG at all ranges, because they are cheaper, because they hit the field earlier.

They are better at AT because PG need to retreat earlier or risk dropping a shreck that is simply too powerful in a 6 men squad...they also have guaranteed 60 deflection damage vs heavy tanks at range 40 and have snare.

If so power units are to arrive this early move Pgs to T1 have cost 280/pop 7 and come with 2k98 2 MP44 and lock their upgrade behind T2. The shock value of Penal is far more than the shock value of current Pg that are trying simply cope by the time they hit the field.

When the time the first penal hit the field, okw actually has more unit on the field and ostheer has MG42 also. As penal doesn't has grenade and smoke (WOW, smoke OP!), i don't think the shock value on penal is greater than rifleman.

I would like to see grenadiers' lmg, rifle nade, faust and panzer grenadiers' super grenade, double shrecks and volks' flame nade, faust and stgs and strumpioneers' shreck having side tech cost if penals' ptrs upgrade requires a side tech cost also.

They have a tech cost it is researching T2 or building truck 1.

If you prefer Ostheer should be able to built T2 T3 T$ without researching them and these "weapons" could come with the research of BP...similar for OKW cheaper truck and side grades...

They have a tech cost it is researching T2 or building truck 1.

If you prefer Ostheer should be able to built T2 T3 T$ without researching them and these "weapons" could come with the research of BP...similar for OKW cheaper truck and side grades...

So lock penal's ptrs behind T3 is fine, or lock it behind T1 just like the ostheer faust.

So lock penal's ptrs behind T3 is fine, or lock it behind T1 just like the ostheer faust.

The Faust in not the same with the PTRS...and the AT satchel is "free" (or almost as free as the faust)

As explained it has been argued that Penal follow the riflemen model, and riflers do not get the bazooka for free. If you want to soviet to follow the Ostheer model than the should have linear teching less access to doctrinal unit and then they could get all the other goodies for "free".

The actual timing or tech cost of PTRS is one of the smallest issues with Penals. The fact that the deflection damage of the weapon saw a x154% increment by accident is far more serous.

The Faust in not the same with the PTRS...and the AT satchel is "free" (or almost as free as the faust)

so lock it behind T3

Penals, as their names suggest, if you ask me, should be cheap throwaway infantry that could be spammed a lot.

I mean, why in the hell would you give better weapons to infantry who are serving in labor units basically because of crimes they've committed than to give those same better weapons to the Conscripts or Streltsy or whatever?

I mean, just make the Penals into like an 8 man squad or something, of which only 4 or 5 guys are armed and give them an upgrade that allows them to arm the rest of the squad with rifles, like in EF.

Give the Conscripts a few upgrades like SVT package of the old penals, AT rifles and either DPs or PPShs, or hell alright they'll be replacing Guards and Shocks with the last 2 upgrades so just SVTs and AT rifles then, scaling? No problem, Soviets can't bitch about their shitty mainline infantry anymore.

Also, give the Penals make shift molotov cocktails and give F1 grenades to the Conscripts, and we remove the satchel charge bs altogether.

Or, give them to the Combat Engineers through and upgrade or something.

I guess you should ask both hitler and stalin, since in both armies penal batallions were treated as elite ones and really got better equipment. Mind that this is only about real criminals like murderers for example - they simply make better soldiers (in the sense of effectivness only of course). Political prisoners and soldiers who broke their orders were instead thrown on suicidial missions, like you suggest. These don't have a place in coh though, since the game is all about squad preservation.

sure, lets revamp the entire game again because you have some l2p issue against penals. sure

sure, lets revamp the entire game again because you have some l2p issue against penals. sure

Your name leaves nothing to the imagination

Your name leaves nothing to the imagination

that acc got created back in times of the 270mp penals, now i barely use em anymore. i prefer rifleblobs

but i cant comment on you either since you are always crying about axis being up

sure, lets revamp the entire game again because you have some l2p issue against penals. sure

WBP is a revamp of the game anyway.

Trying to portrait balance as an personal issue, actually mean you have no arguments...

As I have explain in patch September 9th, 2014 units where balanced against each other, Penal simply are not balanced. They beat Grenadier and VG at all ranges and situation and that has absolutely nothing to do knowledge of the game. It is simply bad design.

I guess you should ask both hitler and stalin, since in both armies penal batallions were treated as elite ones and really got better equipment. Mind that this is only about real criminals like murderers for example - they simply make better soldiers (in the sense of effectivness only of course). Political prisoners and soldiers who broke their orders were instead thrown on suicidial missions, like you suggest. These don't have a place in coh though, since the game is all about squad preservation.

Can you show me an example of penal units being regarded as "elite"?

Every instance of a penal unit I've read, they have always been treated as cannon fodder and nothing more, but never "elite".

Plus, why would the "Elite" redeem themselves with either their enemy's blood or THEIR OWN? Isn't that wasting the potential of an "Elite" unit?

Can you show me an example of penal units being regarded as "elite"?

Every instance of a penal unit I've read, they have always been treated as cannon fodder and nothing more, but never "elite".

Plus, why would the "Elite" redeem themselves with either their enemy's blood or THEIR OWN? Isn't that wasting the potential of an "Elite" unit?

Dirlewanger's squad is the first that comes to my mind. One could argue they were "cannon fodder" as they lost huge amounts of men in some operations, but on the other hand they were always well equipped and were deployed in crucial places during operations they took part in. Command always knew that whatever the mission is, this unit is always going to success.