Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.4 Update

I believe T1 should only have soft AT, enough to make soft-skinned vehicles have second thoughts on charging in.

I do not mind the AT satchel if it's enough to just keep vehicles from charging in and/or there's the other idea of allowing the M3 to have enough penetration to at least chip armoured cars and half-tracks from a distance.

This means T1 players can have their cake and eat it too. They get mainline infantry with flamethrowers to totally deny garrison / cover use. Then they don't even need to tech up for 12 minutes because PTRS will handle anything the axis can field.

They get the benefits of a strong early game and little in the way of downsides.

Axis can't harrass 'cos the M3 can chase you all the way to base and wipe a squad.
Axis can't use cover because of flamers
Axis have to bunch up and lose map control

Axis hard counters are instantly countered by the same tier. Scout car vs PTRS = PTRS win. Luchs can't do much pushing either.


There should be a trade-off for the early power boost.


And why the hell do all Allied infantry have good handheld AT for their mainline and elite inf when Axis lights and mediums are weaker than allied lights and mediums and the OKW had their shrek taken.

whats your problem with garisons? Going T1 means no units that that can utilize garissons. Maxim would arrive in late game if ever. Garisoned Flamer-ppsh penals would lose to even folks in red cover.

Plus dont forget about your extra squad that you have if oponent goes T1 and esp penal sniper.

They deserved it, since they severly overperforming for their cost and arrival time. What is your point here? Why do you even mention it? how is it relevant?

His point is that they only nerfed penals. It is quite relevant, since they didn't change penal's performance, so people blaming the balance team for how penals are at the moment and claiming that they made them too strong is just ill-informed

woow nice balance!

The 300MP argument doesn't say much since grenadier also have a 60 muni weapon upgrade which evens it out... NOT only that but penals have insanely more utility than grenadiers, penals are like from a 80's action movie.

finally grenadiers are 4 man meaning lategame you will lose the vet3 squad to a mortar hit + quick tank followup shot. Frustrating stuff a 6 man squad don't have to deal with.

Emmmmm...What utility? Snare? Grenade? Making bunkers?

LMG Grens wins at long range with Penals and it's getting in Penals' favour when the distance is getting smaller and smaller. I don't expect LMG Grens to win vs Penals at close/mid range - do you?


And my main question still stands. It's 1.4 and I wonder how many other light AT options were tried in WBP.

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And why the hell do all Allied infantry have good handheld AT for their mainline and elite inf when Axis lights and mediums are weaker than allied lights and mediums and the OKW had their shrek taken.

70 fuel difference between luchs and t70. Plus fuel that luchs can deny. So much time is enogh to close the game. Thats why good early at is necessary

70 fuel difference between luchs and t70. Plus fuel that luchs can deny. So much time is enogh to close the game. Thats why good early at is necessary

u can have zis 76 in under 3min.

its one of the fastes arrive heavy AT gun

Emmmmm...What utility? Snare? Grenade? Making bunkers?

LMG Grens wins at long range with Penals and it's getting in Penals' favour when the distance is getting smaller and smaller. I don't expect LMG Grens to win vs Penals at close/mid range - do you?


And my main question still stands. It's 1.4 and I wonder how many other light AT options were tried in WBP.

upgradable anti tank rifles? AT satchel, molotov, satchel charge, flame thrower. I think minelaying ability is the only tool thats missing for a true ubermensch squad.

Also grenadiers barely wins at long range, it could go either way.. they get totally wrecked at medium and close range also flamethrower makes sure they can never use garrisons or heavy cover. Also penals have good moving accuracy so they are good assault troops, grenadiers lose ALL their dps if they so much as move an inch.

Well, I'd expect 300MP squad to win vs Grens or Volks with similar veterancy.

Tho after upgrade, battle should be in favour of Grens (which in fact is the case).
Idk how it is with Volks with upgrade casue my connection forbids me watching right now

The video shows that in when both Volks and Penal are in green cover with 0 vet and 0 upgrades, with the volks losing 5 men and the Penal losing one, shouldn't the Penal be only 50 mp (25%) more effective than the volk?

Furthermore Volks vet 5 loses to penal vet 3 in green cover. What's the point of Volks (and OKW) if their vet 5 bonuses can't compete with the vet 3 bonuses of other infantry? OKWs vet 5 was supposed to be 1.25 as effective as comparable allied units. Somehow this is no longer the case. (Rant: Also I find it imbalanced that Volk Vet 3 is much weaker than other mainline infantry's vet 3. IMO Volks vet nerfs should have been reverted when shrek's were removed.)

Also in the Obers test, vet 0 Obers vs vet 0 Penal, the obers lost 2 and the Penal lost 6. If you can justify the penal vs volk/gren performance due to a 50 MP difference, why isnt the 100 MP difference that obers have over Penals seems to not have a similar performance differential?

But require an expensive building to be built at the start,

Wait how is that different than OST t1?

they also are on a tier which then excludes you from getting support weapons.

I mean it's not like they need them anymore.

u can have zis 76 in under 3min.

its one of the fastes arrive heavy AT gun

And how zis help you to fight vs infatry ? I can same about OKW, thya have raketen in t0 so thay in theory dont have problems with any ligh vehicles.

The video shows that in when both Volks and Penal are in green cover with 0 vet and 0 upgrades, with the volks losing 5 men and the Penal losing one, shouldn't the Penal be only 50 mp (25%) more effective than the volk?

Furthermore Volks vet 5 loses to penal vet 3 in green cover. What's the point of Volks (and OKW) if their vet 5 bonuses can't compete with the vet 3 bonuses of other infantry? OKWs vet 5 was supposed to be 1.25 as effective as comparable allied units. Somehow this is no longer the case.

Also in the Obers test, vet 0 Obers vs vet 0 Penal, the obers lost 2 and the Penal lost 6. If you can justify the penal vs volk/gren performance due to a 50 MP difference, why isnt the 100 MP difference that obers have over Penals seems to not have a similar performance differential?

Idk. Like I said, I saw only Grens part casue my connection forbids me watching videos and I don't have time for endless buffering.

upgradable anti tank rifles? AT satchel, molotov, satchel charge, flame thrower. I think minelaying ability is the only tool thats missing for a true ubermensch squad.

Also grenadiers barely wins at long range, it could go either way.. they get totally wrecked at medium and close range also flamethrower makes sure they can never use garrisons or heavy cover. Also penals have good moving accuracy so they are good assault troops, grenadiers lose ALL their dps if they so much as move an inch.

I don't consider upgrades as a utility. There were plenty talks about Cons utility, yet they don't have any upgrade. AT satchel is just a fancy flavour. It's not that useful. Charge is just for blowing buildings and nothing more.

A little question, can you guys made quad somthing like OKW aa HT, i mean now he are good like AA unit, but lost his AI things, maybe some range buff would be good if he supress only when he dont move ?

And how zis help you to fight vs infatry ? I can same about OKW, thya have raketen in t0 so thay in theory dont have problems with any ligh vehicles.

How often should i tell u the follow:

i dent need a AT which can sneak in camo and sit in houses...i need AT which can deal with armor.

But how does the raketen deal with armor?

let me say some examples:

- it doesnt shot while a tank drive the angeles cause of long aim time
- when it shot, often it shoots in ground or have massive accuracy problems
- it killed often by first shot from allie tanks (comet/sherman/t34/ etc etc)

How often should i tell u the follow:

i dent need a AT which can sneak in camo and sit in houses...i need AT which can deal with armor.

But how does the raketen deal with armor?

let me say some examples:

- it doesnt shot while a tank drive the angeles cause of long aim time
- when it shot, often it shoots in ground or have massive accuracy problems
- it killed often by first shot from allie tanks (comet/sherman/t34/ etc etc)

And have raketen deal with armor ? Same penetretion like zis nad pac. If trust statcoh.hu, all at guns have same acuracy, problem taht he shoot at hills are like ISU problems ?
Yes raketen have some problem, but you forget about his +, camo, can flank, can shoot from buildings and trench, can retreut, i think about this things dont need forget too.
Its dont change that fact that you recomend ppl build zis at 3 min and dont see different bettwen 70 fuel to get light vehicles.

And how zis help you to fight vs infatry ? I can same about OKW, thya have raketen in t0 so thay in theory dont have problems with any ligh vehicles.

Nobody forces you to buy ZiS so early. But you have your "strategic diversity" everyone insists here oh so often

On the sidenote:

Zis can easily repel garrisoned units or static units such as HMG's, can even deliver some serious hurt to the advancing force, with some move prediction.

Raketen are in a sorry state as they are now and we all know that, so I dont see a reason why you even use it as an argument.

Nobody forces you to buy ZiS so early. But you have your "strategic diversity" everyone insists here oh so often

On the sidenote:

Zis can easily repel garrisoned units or static units such as HMG's, can even deliver some serious hurt to the advancing force, with some move prediction.

Raketen are in a sorry state as they are now and we all know that, so I dont see a reason why you even use it as an argument.

I feel one guy write it about 3 min zis, so talk to him about why he need zis at 3 min.
60 amo and not good accuracy. I am dunno how often you can use that in early game ? We all know why zis get his barrage ability. I dont see any reason to whine about allies light vehicles if you hae raketen in t0 and you light vehicles can arrive faster or in same time.

Also in the Obers test, vet 0 Obers vs vet 0 Penal, the obers lost 2 and the Penal lost 6. If you can justify the penal vs volk/gren performance due to a 50 MP difference, why isnt the 100 MP difference that obers have over Penals seems to not have a similar performance differential?

The video is ill-conceived at best and deliberately misinforming at worse. The obers were not upgraded with the lmg 34 until they had already dropped to 2 models. Furthermore the vet 5 obers moved out of cover mid engagement , which until that point they were clearly winning (dropping 1 model, while penals lost 3) without the lmg34. All comparisons were also done at mid range, which makes the entire video unrepresentative of any realistic ingame situation since penals would have to close in first to get to mid range.

No one will ever not upgrade obers. Now, if the argument here is that obers should already beat penals with only their standard rifles, then the logical conclusion must be to adjust obers to do just that at vet 0 and remove the lmg upgrade.

With regard to veterancy, I'd expect obers to win already at vet 2 or 3 against vet 3 penals even without the upgrade. Vet 2 already offers all the offensive bonuses, 3 and 4 only offer more received accuracy reductions while vet 5 is sprinting.

I feel one guy write it about 3 min zis, so talk to him about why he need zis at 3 min.
60 amo and not good accuracy. I am dunno how often you can use that in early game ? We all know why zis get his barrage ability. I dont see any reason to whine about allies light vehicles if you hae raketen in t0 and you light vehicles can arrive faster or in same time.

Dont turn this around now. You complain you cant have AT for early axis vehicles when you decide to go T1 to get:
-superior infantry that still scales great into late game
-snipers that counter both OST snipers as well apply severe bleed to axis infantry rooster because their low model count
-scout vehicle which can be turned into clowncar to deal with HMG's, mortars, or with proper micro, with regular squads, which is sometimes pushed blindly into the field since it is a death sentence to kubel the moment they meet.

other then that, you can fill gaps from lack of either T1 or T2 with guards ,120mm mortar, M-42, DShK, and so on, since soviets doctrines were always designed around filling those gaps due to the nature of their T1/T2 and T3/T4

So I did just a quick test video Penals vs Grens in better circumstances. All test were done on the testrange map, maximum range (about 30 if I can read the lines correctly).


The results are relatively clear. (Remember this is only a small sample size)
Penals Vs Grens Vet 0
Penals win
Penals vs Grens Vet 0 LMG
Grens win
Penals vs Grens Vet 3
Penals win clearly shows how good Penal vet is
Penlas vs Grens Vet 3 LMG
Grens win

PS: Note that I did this mainly to play a bit with DaVinci Resolve and to test my poor editing skills. There is no sound thanks to my superb skills

To many players saing you can go current penals without PTRS and simply tech for zis.

Problem is you cannot.

Early game you lose 160mp and cca30 seconds just to start getting penals. Then each penal is 60 mp more than gren and 50 mp more than volks. Enemy will have sturms and 3 volks and kubel at time you get 3rd penal and your first engineer.

Also he will have much better map control resulting into fuel dominance provided by kubel and also better positions because his squad came faster on field than yours.

This transits into his map dominance in first minutes of play til you get standing army. Then you will have to pay 250mp to get medics, just medics, its not like okw where you get it as part of teching for 100MP cost (300MP for truck and battlegruppe is as teching cost, same you spend for getting tier1 or tier2, then tier3, flakHQ cost is almost same as tier4 so its fine). You see, medics for okw are cheaper. Also he can skip them alltogether and just stay on pio medkits, whitch got buffed.


And now enemy will role his luchs. You will have to spend another 320+160 mp to just keep yourself in game to get at gun. Also if he flanks at gun or swarms you, its gg for you because you lack AT nade. So if you got 3 penals and zis you will spend 1960 MP if we count also medics. Withou them you will bleed even more and lose even more map resulting into slower teching, if ever.

For 1960 MP enemy will have luchs, sturmpioneers, kubel and 4 volks because okw start with more MP than soviets because of "truck cost".

You see clearly imbalance, you cannot hold your position with single AT gun and 3 penals against 4 volks, spios and luchs. You will lose badly. And with current penals there is no way to make such early game blow to his play as he gives you mid game, because of tier1 build time.


Against ostheer its the same, at the time you will get first penal on the field he will have mg in key house and for every penal he will have one grenadier because ostheer have some starting MP bonus as well, penals cost more and tier1 for soviets is more expensive than ost tier1.

This will once again result into 3 grens and mg against 3 penals. Try outfighting that knowing you will have to spend additional 750MP for medics and AT gun, rough cost he will spent getting flamer 251, medics and 222.

In ost matchup its not as drastic but you still can see axis have advantage when you get tier1 both in super early game and mid game. In both matchups enemy will get more map super early, you will outfight him and get your half back later on then he will outrun you with his lights.


PS: PTRS on penals is nowhere near OP. With thaaat big aiming time you can kite PTRS penals with luch or 222 forever and ever. Also they are one less squad on the field because they do nothing to enemy infantry.


Saying penals are OP or even too good and worth right now is madness. And if you don´t believe me, ask anyone who played with me in WBP game either on soviet side or on axis side. Every time this scenario was the same.