1 Month till February, changes within scope

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 22:55 PM__deleted__

Chance that demolition squad will wipe squad moving in open field (not clumped) is really small. He would have to directly go through that demo and enemy will have to detonate demo in exact moment. Simply chance of wiping squad in the open (full health) is really small. Even smaller with new patch spacing.

So this leaves demos good to 3 things.

Place them on capping point
Place them near areas where squads clump on
Place them on buildings.


They will still be placeable on buildings because thats what you suggest to change.

Demo on capping point cannot wipe your squad if you use some king of micro. Simple move from other direction than normal capping direction by shortest route and don´t cap near circle. By this enemy cannot wipe your squad with demo - most likely, if you know how to position your squad in circle. If he detonate demo, you lose 2-3 members and he lose 90 munnition.

Only think where there may be problematic are areas where squads clump on because this may lead to several wipes and you cannot counter it.


So all in all if we allow demos to be placeable on bridges, houses AND CAPPING CIRCLES they should be fine. If you don´t cap without sweeper its your problem. OKW have the same ability for 50 munnition on obersoldaten

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 23:56 PMPolar Lights

Except Obers booby trap point often only kills two men. This makes it very costly when a 30 muni mine will do the same thing. Will prob be even worse after patch and it only gets one model due large squad spacing.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 19:42 PMokwplayer

• Pretend demos don't exist and Lose Squads - Game Loss
  
• Treat every uncapped territory & building without vision as potential game loss without a Sturm.
  

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 01:37 AMDonnieChan

you do realize they cost almost 100 muni?

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 19:42 PMokwplayer

@Barton
I think that change would be a slight buff overall? You would have those krafty engineers putting single wires all over the place! Soviet wire is very quick to erect. I do like that as a game mechanic though, it would require a little more micro and becomes an interesting mental game of "FEAR MY WIRE".


@Hector
I agree they are definitely good at their job. Too good in fact. 3 Mines in their current state have nowhere near the same impact on slowing capping as they cannot be clumped and only kill 2 models. Before the mine nerf this was a better argument.

As for "responding to enemy actions", you have two choices:

• Pretend demos don't exist and Lose Squads - Game Loss
  
• Treat every uncapped territory & building without vision as potential game loss without a Sturm.
  

The main problem is not the munitions cost, its manpower. As I said this is much less a problem for Wehr with the cost effective pioneer.

I cannot fight a multi-flank battle, or even properly assault machine guns from multiple angles without multiple Sturm Pioneers. But, their combat effectiveness is simply too low for this to be cost effective in mid game. Late game I hit the popcap ceiling in which they are also incredibly inefficient.

Multiple Sturm is only acceptable if I could get both a flamethrower and a minesweeper upgrade, or a minesweeper and a panzershrek allowing me to actually exploit the munitions advantage you mention above and scale this 300 manpower 9 popcap unit...

My volks already have stg 44s and as many grenades as they want. Munitions have never been a problem for me. In fact if I had weapon racks in my base I would be laughing all the way to the bank.

Jump back to quoted post31 Dec 2016, 16:12 PMBulgakov

Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.

In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.

Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.

The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.


And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"

Demos are bad.

Jump back to quoted post28 Dec 2016, 18:30 PMJackDickolson

And I am looking for one single logical argument as why small arms must be able to penetrate and soft counter the Puma and 222.

Jump back to quoted post28 Dec 2016, 18:30 PMJackDickolson

• STORMTROOPERS Their stock rifles need to be better, a lot better. Their upgrade costs are expensive and with the camouflage nerfs, they are going to be at an even weaker position.
  
  
  
  
  

Jump back to quoted post2 Jan 2017, 11:28 AMaerafield

OK seriously, when do noobs start to abandon the idea of broken infiltration squads?? Stormtroopers are an example of balanced infiltration inf. Though I agree that their stg44 upgrade needs to become cheaper.

Like seriously, sry but imo this way of thinking is so retarded: "What? The enemy infil. inf is broken? I want that too!"

And this is why bundled nades are as broken as light gammon bombs

Jump back to quoted post2 Jan 2017, 10:41 AMsquippy

I've remarked on this oddity myself. My guess is that it's so infantry can deter and repel these vehicles, while offering little risk of destroying them. Otherwise you might be able to just close on inf and push them out of cover etc with impunity, or rush straight into the enemy base to hunt snipers, retreated squads, and for inspection purposes.

I'm not entirely happy with this state of affairs, but there is some method to the madness.

Jump back to quoted post2 Jan 2017, 20:38 PMJackDickolson

Regarding demos, Highfiveee came up with a decent solution. But still I am more in favor of leaving them as they are, aside from a minor cost adjustment.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2017, 11:09 AMBlalord

Demo should only be able to detonate when a engineer is at "insert number" meter of the demo !

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2017, 11:20 AMMr.Smith

While this sounds like an excellent idea, I am not 100% sure this is implementable.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2017, 11:28 AM__deleted__

I don´t think this one alone is best solution. You simply hide 170MP engineer behind VP for some time and you still have almost guaranteed wipe if he doesn´t came with sweepers.


Also you almost always leave commandos hidden near demo to kill any1 who survives explosion.

It may be intersting idea, but it will only make demos harder to use, it won´t solve problem. demos will still wipe lone squads

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 23:55 PMBlickWinkel

Just give demos to axis too, so when both sides cry about them and see the problem we can start thinking about an anctual solution.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 23:56 PMPolar Lights

Except Obers booby trap point often only kills two men. This makes it very costly when a 30 muni mine will do the same thing. Will prob be even worse after patch and it only gets one model due large squad spacing.

Jump back to quoted post31 Dec 2016, 16:12 PMBulgakov

Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.

In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.

Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.

The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.


And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"

Demos are bad.

Jump back to quoted post31 Dec 2016, 16:12 PMBulgakov

Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.

In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.

Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.

The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.


And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"

Demos are bad.

Jump back to quoted post4 Jan 2017, 11:28 AM__deleted__

I don´t think this one alone is best solution. You simply hide 170MP engineer behind VP for some time and you still have almost guaranteed wipe if he doesn´t came with sweepers.


Also you almost always leave commandos hidden near demo to kill any1 who survives explosion.

It may be intersting idea, but it will only make demos harder to use, it won´t solve problem. demos will still wipe lone squads