1 Month till February, changes within scope

Damn, time flies. We've got 30 days left till the first iteration of the WBP goes live. There needs to be a lot more tweaking to address the milestones outlined by relic.

• Light Tanks/Vehicles

While the AEC, Puma, Luchs and 222 are somewhat balanced, the Stuart and T70 remain powerful. Perhaps still too powerful to be considered 'light 'tanks'. I find the T70 to be the bigger offender here, with its high rate of fire and mobility, and now its as durable as any other light tank. The Stuart doesn\t wipe infantry with its splash damage anymore, but given the high utility of the light tank, the LMGs need some further nerf.

And I am looking for one single logical argument as why small arms must be able to penetrate and soft counter the Puma and 222.

• Squad Formations

New Squad Formations shouldn't affect the soviets, as they are durable enough and should remain considerably more vulnerable to HE/Arty units.

• Clumping

Same as above.

• USF Mortar

The problem with this unit is a design issue, balancing the stats won't resolve that. The proposed changes in the WBP are too trivial anyway.

• Penals Guards

Guards are fine. Penals lost some AI, while gaining too much utility and outshadowing cons.

• Wehrmacht Infantry Scaling

Well where to begin with.

• ASSAULT GRENADIERS They are a high impact, hard hitting starter unit. What minimal received accuracy they get in exchange after reaching veterancy is irrelevant. For mid game and late game we have panzergrenadiers. Removing the armor value from the squad leader is a nerf. I am curios to know the reasoning behind this, aside from nerfing the Mechanized Assault Doctrine.
  
  
• PANZERGRENADIERS They are OK. They have been OK for a long time now.
  
  
• GRENADIERS Reinforcement cost untouched
  
  
• STORMTROOPERS Their stock rifles need to be better, a lot better. Their upgrade costs are expensive and with the camouflage nerfs, they are going to be at an even weaker position.
  
  
• OSTRUPPEN Should be able to dig their holes inside neutral/enemy territory.
  
  
• PIONEERS They need faster repair speed and more utility, as stressed by the community.
  
  
• SNIPER The biggest loser from the camouflage changes. It needs unique veterancy bonuses.
  
  

That is all I can think of for now. And for out of scope changes, there is this thread brought up by Frost.

WBP does not go live. What happens is the preview mod patch is over. Then changes are implemented in whatever form or fashion relic deems appropriate, ostensibly based on the information compiled through the preview mod. The timeline and content of that actual relic patch is outside any of our control, including the official trio of modders.

Anyway:

I don't disagree with your initial points. The 222 is the only unit that warrants taking small arms fire, but tbh the 222 model should be like half the size it is. It's kind of been an odd unit the way it looks and performs in this game.

Clumping and formation changes alone impacts the game on such a significant level that it's hard to see how it will affect the game until well after this condensed and controlled sampling session is over.

A
Assault grens have never been a huge issue for the game. Their commander has been an issue, but not since their launch/cashgrab have assault grens been a problematic themselves. The only feasible change to them might be Faust access in some manner, but that's a contentious change.

B
Yeah pgrens are ok. I would prefer that they have rifles like stormtroopers at the start. I always thought they should be closer to obers but without an lmg. Getting stgs or schrecks should be their choice.

C
Squad clumping and spread is their weakness along with every other 4 man squad. Balancing and adjusting their stats without accounting for this or the impact fixing that will have is a fools errand imo.

D
Like I said about pgrens, if their rifles matched obers they might be more worthwhile.

E
Sure.

F
See, the thing about the cloaking changes is that, to me, this was not an actual bug. It was probably one of the few, if not the only, method in which players could really utilize skill in micro ing units.

Sure I guess they're good changes but I feel like it's only lowering the skill level of the game and making snipers more of a sidenote. To the point snipers would probably fit in a commander as a gimmicky than a component of overall game and faction design.

Damn, time flies. We've got 30 days left till the first iteration of the WBP goes live.

iteration /ɪtəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/ noun a new version of a piece of computer hardware or software.

Should have mentioned in my Original Post that English isn't my native language

Not a problem, but you weren't incorrect using the word iteration. But my point is that the WBP is not what is getting implemented. No iteration of it will be implemented if this process is anything like the last patch that followed this process.

WBP is an official suggestion box that we get to try and play around with, test, and give feedback, under the guidance of a select group of modders. It is not an official patch itself.

It is not an official patch itself.

Partially true. It isn't.

But once finalized, most changes will be directly incorporated. There won't be any standalone patch fully developed by relic themselves, the WBP is all they can afford at this moment.


But let's not get caught in semantics.

pure axisfanboy

EF Armies are not the only ones in need of changes.

I don't know the precise date of when the balance patch will hit live, but I really highly doubt that this is going to be anywhere near early February.

That's partly due to the fact that we lost 2 weeks of playtesting due to Steam shenanigans, partly because the process was supposed to be thorough anyway, with multiple iterations, and mostly because it will take some time for Relic to implement the sheer amount of changes needed to implement the patch.

Soviet Demo Charges. PLEASE look into this.

I play OKW and against a competent soviet player I have to assume that every building and point has a demo charge, or risk losing entire squads (vetted or otherwise) to a 90 munition ability.

So now I have to bring a 300mp squad to counter a 170mp squad, and I have no choice but to take the minesweeper upgrade.

To make things worse, since mines were nerfed into oblivion Ivan will take the flamethrower upgrade without question. This makes flank battles of Sturm vs Combat Engineer unwinnable on even terms - unless I manage to surprise him coming around the corner.

It says something that my priority target in every engagement is a 170 manpower unit. Not that it matters, I kill one and they train another...

I am not a Wehr player but I can see this as being less of a problem due to the cheaper pioneer. However it's still unbalanced since the mine nerf for the same reason - pioneer forced into minesweeper upgrade with combat engineer taking flamethrower as mines are cheaper just to walk infantry over

Possible Solutions
===========

1. Remove Demo Charges
2. Nerf Demo Charges + Reduce Munition Cost.
3. Give Volksgrenadiers the option of the retractable minesweeper upgrade, without locking out stg44.

I would be happy with all of these options, with preference being for option 3. I'm not against having a massive squad wiping bomb, but it needs cost effective counters to keep the game fluid - Option 3 would provide this without reducing game complexity.

For the History Fans - did they regularly use radio detonated explosives in WW2?

Soviet Demo Charges. PLEASE look into this.

I play OKW and against a competent soviet player I have to assume that every building and point has a demo charge, or risk losing entire squads (vetted or otherwise) to a 90 munition ability.

So now I have to bring a 300mp squad to counter a 170mp squad, and I have no choice but to take the minesweeper upgrade.

To make things worse, since mines were nerfed into oblivion Ivan will take the flamethrower upgrade without question. This makes flank battles of Sturm vs Combat Engineer unwinnable on even terms - unless I manage to surprise him coming around the corner.

It says something that my priority target in every engagement is a 170 manpower unit. Not that it matters, I kill one and they train another...

I am not a Wehr player but I can see this as being less of a problem due to the cheaper pioneer. However it's still unbalanced since the mine nerf for the same reason - pioneer forced into minesweeper upgrade with combat engineer taking flamethrower as mines are cheaper just to walk infantry over

Possible Solutions
===========

1. Remove Demo Charges
2. Nerf Demo Charges + Reduce Munition Cost.
3. Give Volksgrenadiers the option of the retractable minesweeper upgrade, without locking out stg44.

I would be happy with all of these options, with preference being for option 3. I'm not against having a massive squad wiping bomb, but it needs cost effective counters to keep the game fluid - Option 3 would provide this without reducing game complexity.

For the History Fans - did they regularly use radio detonated explosives in WW2?

you do realize they cost almost 100 muni?

Possible Solutions
===========

1. Remove Demo Charges
2. Nerf Demo Charges + Reduce Munition Cost.
3. Give Volksgrenadiers the option of the retractable minesweeper upgrade, without locking out stg44.

I would be happy with all of these options, with preference being for option 3. I'm not against having a massive squad wiping bomb, but it needs cost effective counters to keep the game fluid - Option 3 would provide this without reducing game complexity.

This feels like it shouldn't be in this thread at all and should be in its own thread with a replay attached to it.

Now let me take a look at one of your solutions. Solution #3.

Forgive me if I sound rude, but that is a big giant NO. If anything, no faction should never be given that kind of utility. I understand your "dislike" against demolition charges, but bringing the idea of giving Volksgrenadiers the option to detect mines without any consequences would be a no brainer for every OKW player.

LUL Volks with minesweeper.

A
Assault grens have never been a huge issue for the game. Their commander has been an issue, but not since their launch/cashgrab have assault grens been a problematic themselves. The only feasible change to them might be Faust access in some manner, but that's a contentious change.

Assault Grens haven't been an issue, because they have been irrelevant ever since their first nerf. They were basically nerfed into oblivion, in the truest sense of that sentence. The changes in the WBP do nothing to change that, so the question is why they were touched at all in the first place. Wasted time, like in so many other areas of that patch.

The 222 is the only unit that warrants taking small arms fire, but tbh the 222 model should be like half the size it is. It's kind of been an odd unit the way it looks and performs in this game.

The way accuracy on infantry rifles works would make that change in target size irrelevant - small arms fire would still hit it with a 100% chance. The problem isn't as bad on the Puma, as the Puma isn't mean to fight infantry - unlike the 222. Even in the WBP (with the allegedly fixed MG) the 222 still gets fucked up by a single Rifleman squad before it can force that squad to retreat. You don't even need to bother once there are two Rifleman squads closely together, because they still outdamage a fucking 2cm auto-cannon...

B
Yeah pgrens are ok. I would prefer that they have rifles like stormtroopers at the start. I always thought they should be closer to obers but without an lmg. Getting stgs or schrecks should be their choice.

PzGrens are only worth their cost, because they provide a significant shock value. When they come in, you already have long range units (Grens), getting more of those is a complete nonsensical decision. Couple the upgrade idea with the ammunition problems Ostheer already has, and you make things worse than they already are. Because then the decision would not anymore be along the lines of "Do I compete in the infantry game by spending my ammo on LMGs, or do I go for a mine?" - you would essentially remove strategic diversity from Ostheer, which would be kind of funny seeing that this is the faction with the least of that anyway...

Soviet Demo Charges. PLEASE look into this.

I play OKW and against a competent soviet player I have to assume that every building and point has a demo charge, or risk losing entire squads (vetted or otherwise) to a 90 munition ability.

So now I have to bring a 300mp squad to counter a 170mp squad, and I have no choice but to take the minesweeper upgrade.

To make things worse, since mines were nerfed into oblivion Ivan will take the flamethrower upgrade without question. This makes flank battles of Sturm vs Combat Engineer unwinnable on even terms - unless I manage to surprise him coming around the corner.

It says something that my priority target in every engagement is a 170 manpower unit. Not that it matters, I kill one and they train another...

I am not a Wehr player but I can see this as being less of a problem due to the cheaper pioneer. However it's still unbalanced since the mine nerf for the same reason - pioneer forced into minesweeper upgrade with combat engineer taking flamethrower as mines are cheaper just to walk infantry over

Possible Solutions
===========

1. Remove Demo Charges
2. Nerf Demo Charges + Reduce Munition Cost.
3. Give Volksgrenadiers the option of the retractable minesweeper upgrade, without locking out stg44.

I would be happy with all of these options, with preference being for option 3. I'm not against having a massive squad wiping bomb, but it needs cost effective counters to keep the game fluid - Option 3 would provide this without reducing game complexity.

For the History Fans - did they regularly use radio detonated explosives in WW2?

good god those ideas are awful.....not to be harsh but 'Okwplayer' I fear you may have a slight bias...

If your opponent is able to build that many demo charges then he must have munitions points and caches. This also means he will not be spending munitions on off maps or upgrades.....

Just get a sweeper (the sturmpios can put theirs away too so no loss of combat ability) and spot the demo charges. Even a couple of squads with sweepers is enough to put the idea of demo charges out of your opponents mind in the first place.

Soviet Demo Charges. PLEASE look into this.

I play OKW and against a competent soviet player I have to assume that every building and point has a demo charge, or risk losing entire squads (vetted or otherwise) to a 90 munition ability.

So now I have to bring a 300mp squad to counter a 170mp squad, and I have no choice but to take the minesweeper upgrade.

To make things worse, since mines were nerfed into oblivion Ivan will take the flamethrower upgrade without question. This makes flank battles of Sturm vs Combat Engineer unwinnable on even terms - unless I manage to surprise him coming around the corner.

It says something that my priority target in every engagement is a 170 manpower unit. Not that it matters, I kill one and they train another...

I am not a Wehr player but I can see this as being less of a problem due to the cheaper pioneer. However it's still unbalanced since the mine nerf for the same reason - pioneer forced into minesweeper upgrade with combat engineer taking flamethrower as mines are cheaper just to walk infantry over

Possible Solutions
===========

1. Remove Demo Charges
2. Nerf Demo Charges + Reduce Munition Cost.
3. Give Volksgrenadiers the option of the retractable minesweeper upgrade, without locking out stg44.

I would be happy with all of these options, with preference being for option 3. I'm not against having a massive squad wiping bomb, but it needs cost effective counters to keep the game fluid - Option 3 would provide this without reducing game complexity.

For the History Fans - did they regularly use radio detonated explosives in WW2?

Use sweepers, look at map where are his pio.

Soviet Demo Charges. PLEASE look into this.

I play OKW and against a competent soviet player I have to assume that every building and point has a demo charge, or risk losing entire squads (vetted or otherwise) to a 90 munition ability.

So now I have to bring a 300mp squad to counter a 170mp squad, and I have no choice but to take the minesweeper upgrade.

To make things worse, since mines were nerfed into oblivion Ivan will take the flamethrower upgrade without question. This makes flank battles of Sturm vs Combat Engineer unwinnable on even terms - unless I manage to surprise him coming around the corner.

It says something that my priority target in every engagement is a 170 manpower unit. Not that it matters, I kill one and they train another...

I am not a Wehr player but I can see this as being less of a problem due to the cheaper pioneer. However it's still unbalanced since the mine nerf for the same reason - pioneer forced into minesweeper upgrade with combat engineer taking flamethrower as mines are cheaper just to walk infantry over

Possible Solutions
===========

1. Remove Demo Charges
2. Nerf Demo Charges + Reduce Munition Cost.
3. Give Volksgrenadiers the option of the retractable minesweeper upgrade, without locking out stg44.

I would be happy with all of these options, with preference being for option 3. I'm not against having a massive squad wiping bomb, but it needs cost effective counters to keep the game fluid - Option 3 would provide this without reducing game complexity.

For the History Fans - did they regularly use radio detonated explosives in WW2?

Loosing more than 2 squads to demos is not only mistake, but also huge lack of competency in terms of responding to enemy actions.


And if those demos slow your capping then they are doing their job. Remember he is spending 90 munnition to get them. For 2 demos you disarm you will have 180 munnition advantage (airstrike, 3 STG volks ...).

Yes demos are stupid game design, but they are more than counterable. Also I think 30 munny mines can give you much more problems than demo because once you hit mine, you have no chance to outfight his infantry wihout reinforcing.

simple solution to demo's is 50 muni cost and placeable only on buildings and obstacles, like constructed wires or so

@Barton
I think that change would be a slight buff overall? You would have those krafty engineers putting single wires all over the place! Soviet wire is very quick to erect. I do like that as a game mechanic though, it would require a little more micro and becomes an interesting mental game of "FEAR MY WIRE".


@Hector
I agree they are definitely good at their job. Too good in fact. 3 Mines in their current state have nowhere near the same impact on slowing capping as they cannot be clumped and only kill 2 models. Before the mine nerf this was a better argument.

As for "responding to enemy actions", you have two choices:

• Pretend demos don't exist and Lose Squads - Game Loss
  
• Treat every uncapped territory & building without vision as potential game loss without a Sturm.
  

The main problem is not the munitions cost, its manpower. As I said this is much less a problem for Wehr with the cost effective pioneer.

I cannot fight a multi-flank battle, or even properly assault machine guns from multiple angles without multiple Sturm Pioneers. But, their combat effectiveness is simply too low for this to be cost effective in mid game. Late game I hit the popcap ceiling in which they are also incredibly inefficient.

Multiple Sturm is only acceptable if I could get both a flamethrower and a minesweeper upgrade, or a minesweeper and a panzershrek allowing me to actually exploit the munitions advantage you mention above and scale this 300 manpower 9 popcap unit...

My volks already have stg 44s and as many grenades as they want. Munitions have never been a problem for me. In fact if I had weapon racks in my base I would be laughing all the way to the bank.

You want to not apply squad-spacing changes to Soviets? That's ridiculous.

I cannot fight a multi-flank battle, or even properly assault machine guns from multiple angles without multiple Sturm Pioneers. But, their combat effectiveness is simply too low for this to be cost effective in mid game. Late game I hit the popcap ceiling in which they are also incredibly inefficient.

Chance that demolition squad will wipe squad moving in open field (not clumped) is really small. He would have to directly go through that demo and enemy will have to detonate demo in exact moment. Simply chance of wiping squad in the open (full health) is really small. Even smaller with new patch spacing.

So this leaves demos good to 3 things.

Place them on capping point
Place them near areas where squads clump on
Place them on buildings.


They will still be placeable on buildings because thats what you suggest to change.

Demo on capping point cannot wipe your squad if you use some king of micro. Simple move from other direction than normal capping direction by shortest route and don´t cap near circle. By this enemy cannot wipe your squad with demo - most likely, if you know how to position your squad in circle. If he detonate demo, you lose 2-3 members and he lose 90 munnition.

Only think where there may be problematic are areas where squads clump on because this may lead to several wipes and you cannot counter it.


So all in all if we allow demos to be placeable on bridges, houses AND CAPPING CIRCLES they should be fine. If you don´t cap without sweeper its your problem. OKW have the same ability for 50 munnition on obersoldaten