T34/T70; Ticking Time bomb of Imbalance

The T34/76 is a Ticking Time Bomb of imbalance just waiting to go off. If these are buffed in even the slightest of ways, the game will swing so far out of scale in the Soviet favor that recent imbalances will feel insignificant by comparison.

Specifically, the growing chorus of calls for T34/T70 buffs from the general public (and apparently Dev's themselves, I hear) is extremely concerning.

Five Core Concerns:

(1) T34 racecar speed + crush
(3) Maingun melts infantry
(4) RAM
(5) T34 vs P4

Firstly, T34 speed is very very fast. As are all Soviet armor. The T34/76 is a light tank, the racecare-like speed is, by itself, an OK thing. But when speed is combined with Tank Crush, along with tiny german squad size (that forms in a tight bunch) it creates an imbalance. It's hardly mentioned here but good Soviet players just race-car over entire squads in a flash. I've had this happen countless times. The frustrating thing is there's nothing you can do. Making it worse, the german squads are inherently small and the AI bunches them together tightly. Just asking to be run over.

The P4 can also crush but this is not OP for very important and very different reasons, that is: The P4 is (1) Slower in both speed and handling than T34 thus giving players more time to react and (2) Soviet squads are larger and are more spread out (harder to run over, more likely to survive), their displacement movement speed is also faster than germans (AI moves out of the way on their own faster), but above all else, soviet squads fire on-the-move while german squads fire standing still... thus making germans sitting ducks.

When attempting to run over soviet squads with a P4, the soviet squad AI moves them out of the way most of the time, while german squads stand there like test dummys. You may run over a Soviets using a P4, and if you're really determined you may run over them all, though it will take time to drive around doing this whereas the soviet T34 just eviscerates the entire squad in one second. I've had several german squads, through no fault of their own, get run over in a flash by T34's. It's ridiculous and clearly not what anyone wants for this game.

Secondly, the soviet main gun absolutely eviscerates infantry. It's worlds better than the P4 at killing infantry and performs more like an Ostwind against infantry. The T34 is basically an Ostwind in Tank form. That's how good it is against infantry. So if you're not getting run over by the T34, you're getting face melted by its maingun.

Finally, RAM. This is OP and I don't even have to explain why. First, it's free. Which I would actually be OK with if the rest of the tank wasn't so OP. Ask yourself, what tank in the game comes as close to the Ostwind in infantry killing? The answer is the T34. ONly a swarm of the russian mini-tanks kills faster than the T34.

As it stands the tank is great against infantry. And in addition it insta-disables ANY tank in the game regardless of size, cost or armor. I don't think I have to explain how even a single T34 will prevent a P4 from moving into enemy territory, knowing it will just be rammed.

T34 needs a nerf not a buff. In sum: For its cost, it's the most power and useful tank in the game. Of everyone who says otherwise, the flaw in their reasoning simple: comparison of the T34 to P4 when they are not meant to be 'equals'. T34 has RAM and can instantly disable any tank in the game. For free. It also kills infantry much faster than the P4 and almost as fast as the Ostwind. The P4 this is not, it's better in many respects, especially for its cost. Talk of buffing the T34 needs to end, now.

Ughhhh...will this ever end?

No units NEED to be "nerfed" or "buffed". They need to be "balanced" so that provide some sort of value.

Most reasonable arguments regarding the T34 aren't asking for it to be stronger against tanks without some sort compromise. I've seen recommendations like:
- less effective vs infantry
- more effective vs medium armor (so that it can beat a P4 if well microed).
- make Ram a vet 1 ability

You could argue that the sum total of these balancing changes is actually a "nerf", but it's a change that a lot of Soviet players would welcome.

1) if a t34 can run over your infantry without getting faust in the ass, you are doing something wrong.
2) t34 and p4 come at a relatively same time and the p4 will always beat a t34.
3) i agree ram is strong but its definitely not free, and not a guarantee kill on the other tank while the t34 most likely will die.
4) if you want to nerf the t34 even more t3 for russians will be absolutely useless and impossible to go to.

overall i agree with jmarks2001 which saying that its not a nerf or buff that is needed its a change.

I don't like the idea of buffing the t70 because it's a bit too hard to get a pak hit on and can outrange pgrens. Basically, you can have the proper counters out and not kill this thing as it charges your AT weapons. Also laying a 60 muni mine isn't always the best idea on these huge 1vs1 maps we've been given.

However, the t-34 getting buffed? No biggy IMO because I believe they are looking at the anti-tank roll buffs, not AI. Even then, if you're getting rammed by these you are going in unsupported. It's not an OP ability, just think a little before you send your tanks into combat. If it's supported, and your grens with faust have to retreat and then you get rammed, you got outplayed. Almost every time I get rammed I have a pak as backup, guess what, that's one dead t-34.

On another note, I believe a lot of this imbalance stuff comes from how expensive pak's are, the amount of damage they do when they hit, how often they actually hit something (mostly moving targets) and the fact that the germans have this anti tank super mine that's so expensive its like planting explosive pirate treasure ESPECIALLY on these huge maps!

We all want balance. The purpose of the post is to challenge the perception that the T34 needs some sort of buff to make it stronger... this whole "buff the T34" line of thinking is playing with fire.

For those who argue an "upgun" upgrade or otherwise making the gun more effective against tanks in some fashion... is crazy. Do you know how cheap this tank is? Do you want it effective against infantry and armor? And be cheap? And take 2-3 shots from an Elephant to kill? And Ram? And speed and crush?

Come on... There's so much going on with the T34 that a single buff of any kind, even minor, will swing it so far out of balance it's scary.

you say the t34 has so many good abillities yet this tank just suck,
he actually cant do anything but ram, and his AI is not that good as you say i can argue that the p4 preforms +- the same as the t34 vs infantry and i played both fractions.

my play style was t1-t3 or t2-t3 and if i didnt rape at the early game i always got fucked by p4's.

you are overreacting to an upcoming buff, it's not like they will buff it so hard that it will win everything it faces.

I will repeat my proposed T34 fix here:

-T34 can upgun to T34/85 maingun, for 100 Muni.

I cant check the numbers since coh2stats was sold, but this would need to come with a commensurate reduction in AI, for a commensurate increase in AT.

For those who argue an "upgun" upgrade or otherwise making the gun more effective against tanks in some fashion... is crazy. Do you know how cheap this tank is? Do you want it effective against infantry and armor? And be cheap? And take 2-3 shots from an Elephant to kill? And Ram? And speed and crush?

No. Unreasonable people want all those things. Reasonable people want it to be better against medium armor and are willing to accept compromises in other areas to keep the game balanced.

Who is saying the T70 needs to be buffed again??? I think its clear it will receive a slight nerf in the next patch. Its also not logical to assume that slight buff to the T34 will make it swing out of balance the other direction because you're not counting on the buffs/nerfs that other units will receive.

The issue i see is that there needs to be more of a separation made between medium tanks and heavy tanks. As it is now, if the T34 is slightly too cheap on fuel everyone will mass them as in beta, whereas if they are slighty too high in fuel everyone will skip them and go T4. I'd like to see more of a necessary scale up from T3 to T4 on both sides personally...

i see the thread title, i see who posted it... wow another doom and gloom from this guy... shocking.


Objective players want this tank to be made cost effective and so it does not force 1 specific playstyle to be somewhat effective, the only way you can go the t34 route isby getting field guns,
not so bad right?? except the soviet tech system forces restrictions on buildings so you are left with the same play style every single game, and even then it is not -that- effective.


I want the T34 to be buffed or some sort of viable AT added to t3. the sheer lack of AT in the soviet arsenal is appaling imo 2 viable options vs the 6 for the germans (non doctrinal) confuses me sometimes espcially when you factor in the fact that german armour is stronger and harder to kill.

Back on topic though, buffing hte t34 will not destroy the game if you buff it to correct game balance : global upgrade to focus more on AT but removes ram, more penertration and more AI scatter, muni cost for upgun, these are a few.

Please OP stop posting here you are draggin teh community down with your hyperbole

I don't think ANYONE is saying the t-70 needs to be buffed

...but this would need to come with a commensurate reduction in AI, for a commensurate increase in AT.

It would. But you're then making all other german armor even weaker. With your change the T34 is now a P4, slightly weaker still but a P4. One that still, even with a commensurate AI nerf, kills infantry faster and better than a P4 and now is more of a threat to the P4. It's also cheaper. Runs circles around PAK's or dispatches them fast (and PAK's are inefficient anyway), steamrolls infantry, etc. There's tons of issues going on in the background here. Tons.

And it's still cheap as hell. You want it to be a P4 but cheaper.

Buffing any stat of the T34, even slightly, exaggerates all other imbalances. Nearly everything else needs to be addressed at the same time or first. Otherwise, hold onto your hats.

...to be somewhat effective, the only way you can go the t34 route isby getting field guns,
not so bad right?? except the soviet tech system forces restrictions on buildings so you are left with the same play style every single game, and even then it is not -that- effective.

Soviet tech system forces restrictions? And the German one doesn't? If anything, the Soviet tech system is much freer than the linear german system. SU-85's come out at german T3 for a reason. You have a choice. It sounds like you're making an argument you need more AT options. Which is on its face ridiculous. All german T2 vehicles are countered by only conscripts. Scout car goes down to one 'nade and small gunfire. Halftrack a little tougher. Anything else and the ZiS or Su-85 takes care of business. Next you'll tell me Soviets need more indirect fire and arty options.

You keep talking about the T70/T34 as one item, but they are completely separate issues.

Five Core Concerns:

(1) T34 racecar speed + crush

The T34 isn't that fast (unless ram is activated)? And if it gets fausted, it is almost certainly dead. I honestly haven't seen t34 crush being an issue. If they do manage get your squad in a group against a building or something, you can always retreat.
The T34 really isn't that great with its crush.

The T70 on the other hand is very fast and shouldn't have crush.

(3) Maingun melts infantry

Really? Its alright, but is far inferior to the t70 main gun. I would take a P4 with the MG gunner over it. It is definitely not a Ostwind by any measure.

The T34 is basically an Ostwind in Tank form.

Isn't an Ostwind already an Ostwind in Tank form?

(4) RAM

I don't have a problem with Ram, but I'm not opposed to a change. I don't think it should be a vet 1 ability though, since t34s don't really get vet late game. If anything was going to be changed, it should be made less extreme (somehow), not a vet ability.

(5) T34 vs P4

This fight is far too one sided. The t34 doesn't need to do well vs the p4, but it shouldn't just get pummelled.

"And take 2-3 shots from an Elephant to kill?"

Since when is asking for a medium tank to not get 1 shotted asking for a lot?


The changes I'd like to see, is make the t70 cheaper (like 40-45 fuel), reduce its rate of fire by 1.5-2 times and take away crush. Maybe reduce its accuracy too.

Then make the t34 more durable with either more health/armour and increase it pentration slightly. Potentially increase cost too.

EDIT: Point of these changes would be to differentiate the t34 and t70 even further.

Off topic: I'd also like to see a supply yard kind of building that would allow the t3/t4 building to be cheaper while not making any of the vehicles come out faster.

T34 need a nerf? You kidding seriously.

Ok T70 need a little balance of his stats, i agree with that but T34 i'm laughing really.

P4 can 2 shoot a squad of 6 men(guards shock script).
Ram abilty is NOT a advantage.

T34 have a great power against infantry but not against a medium tank. 6 SHOOT FOR KILLING A OSTWIND and you want to nerf the T34???

T34 is like the sherman in coh1 with more mobility and less armor but it's the same so P4 is more slowy but better armor penetration better life cost the same prize as a t34/76 to build one(fuel for bat and upgrade on both side ).

That's why if you want to nerf more the T3 of soviets , more players are going to play only with T4 and after that you are going to cry against the SU-85.

How OP determines what needs buffs and what needs nerfs

• List everything that a unit does
  
• Say it all needs to be nerfed anyway
  

I can say with full certainty that EVERYTHING's going to be nerfed that way

Yes, most of the community doesn't like RAM - we'd rather a stronger T-34 with a not so good Ram and that is why we are asking for a T-34 buff...

I agree that the position of balance with the T34 is incredibly precarious - it would be fine if Soviet tech weren't so awkward.

Right now the T34/76 is kind of lackluster in that when you're pumping it out you'll come into contact with enemy armour very soon after, which pretty much means your scare unit that lets you dominate the field is now more or less useless. What the problem is, is that you no longer have any other tier 2 units to transition into to bring balance and be scary to the PzIV and other German tanks. The T34 is it.

This role would be filled magnificently well by the SU-85 if it wasn't so powerful. It's considered too strong for a tier 3 unit as it stands, it would be ridiculous in tier 2.

It's all got to do with Soviet tech. The T34 on paper is a perfectly fine tank. Arguably overpowered due to Ram(I know I've made that argument before, but on playing with it more I don't really follow that). But take into account that Soviet tech is non-linear, and because it's not linear the teching times and the costs are really high. This also explains the cheap price of the SU-85 with regards to performance.

Basically, what the Soviets need to address the T34 issue, is an upgun from T34/76 to the T34/85. Reduce the anti-infantry capability and make it a challenger to tanks. Basically a Russian PzIV. Nullist has suggested this quite a few times.

The problem with this would be the the T34/85 itself. Right now it's flat out a better unit. It doesn't fill a niche, it's a straight upgrade. Usually Soviets float quite a bit of munitions because they're not upgrading their infantry with weapons. So any sort of munitions cost you add to the upgun upgrade would essentially be meaningless, unless it was so absurdly high nobody would buy it.

As a result, you may as well end up removing the T34/76 and replacing it with the T34/85 and boost up the price, and come up with a new doctrinal ability. Perhaps the KV-1 as opposed to the T34/85.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

As a result, you may as well end up removing the T34/76 and replacing it with the T34/85 and boost up the price, and come up with a new doctrinal ability. Perhaps the KV-1 as opposed to the T34/85.

Oh god if they replaced T34/85 with the KV1 and made it upgradable, I would jizz my pants. God do i wish the KV1 was in the multiplayer.

Issue of RAM cost aside; maybe the answer is the RAM mechanic itself. Some say RAM is too extreme, I think at the very least it could be made morel dynamic.

I think two things for certain: RAM should always disable the gun and engine of the ramming tank 100% of the time. That's the physical cost of RAM which should always remain regardless of anything else.

But maybe there should be a dice roll as to whether or not, at least on the larger tanks like Panther, Elephant, Brummbar, and Tiger, maybe these tanks should have slightly more protection from RAM or at lest make RAM more of a dice roll for these units specifically. There should be a diceroll that either the maingun is damaged or the engine is damaged but not both. I don't know. Just ideas...

But having an Elephant, the most expensive unit in the game, insta-disabled by RAM doesn't feel right to anyone.

Issue of RAM cost aside; maybe the answer is the RAM mechanic itself. Some say RAM is too extreme, I think at the very least it could be made morel dynamic.

I think two things for certain: RAM should always disable the gun and engine of the ramming tank 100% of the time. That's the physical cost of RAM which should always remain regardless of anything else.

But maybe there should be a dice roll as to whether or not, at least on the larger tanks like Panther, Elephant, Brummbar, and Tiger, maybe these tanks should have slightly more protection from RAM or at lest make RAM more of a dice roll for these units specifically. There should be a diceroll that either the maingun is damaged or the engine is damaged but not both. I don't know. Just ideas...

But having an Elephant, the most expensive unit in the game, insta-disabled by RAM doesn't feel right to anyone.

One of the developers posted a while back that the T34 ram ability doesn't factor into it's cost because the abilities are balanced separately.