Kyle wants feedback on the PIV

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/243358/p4-feedback


He is asking for opinions on the official forums. I think the vehicle is mostly fine performance wise. It is either the other mediums which are over performing for their costs, or the easy availability of cheap AT for the other factions.

Ill go for a slight increase in armor. Not sure if its the first unit that relic should send out surveys about though.

Keep it 125 fuel but increase penetration to be able to deal with T34.

The Panzer IV used to be the standard to which all medium tanks were compared. But power creep over the last couple years has resulted in it becoming one of the weaker medium tanks in the game, though the strongest ones remain doctrine locked.

I would say with the increase in more heavily armored vehicles, such as the closely priced but vastly superior Easy Eight, more appealing IS-2's due to Soviet tech changes, and the British Army, it would be best to increase the penetration of the main gun.

Note: I am talking exclusively about the Ostheer Panzer IV.

just what is the panzer's equivalent? the sherman ez8 and t34-85 are doctrinal and more expensive.

the panzer 4's equivalent are the cromwell, the 75mm sherman, and the t34-76. Frankly, power creep has just recently begin to affect panzer 4 as well. the US, british, and german regular medium all need an re-evaluation. The soviet t34-76were buff a while buff and I don't think they need it.

(I voted cheaper, btw)

I find p4 to be exactly worth its time to field and its price. If anything, there are other vehicles worth evaluating. Sherman is better in every way for lower price at vet 0, just like the cromwell, which is also really good for time and price. These two need changes, but only slight ones, as it has to be kept in mind that p4 has amazing veterancy, especially vet2.

The t34/76 is ok. The 85 version shouldn't have gotten its mg buff in the first place, otherwise its ok, especially as it is a counter to p4 and as such making p4s penetration better so that it can fight it makes no sense at all. There is always a stug solution ready to do the job.

Becouse I belive these vehicles need only minimal changes, not a prioritate at all, I voted its just fine.

PIV (ost one) is by far weakest medium tank overall. While T34 is weaker in terms of AT its much cheaper has really decent AI for its cost and still can deliver puches when flanking.

PIV on the other hand have to face tanks like Jacksons and Fireflyes which can destoy it really quickly, not to mention that its main damage still comes from MGs rathen then main gun, all tanks T34\85, Sherman, Cromwell, EZ and so on have by far better AI power and 85\EZ have better AT capabilities. But lets forget about doc tanks.

Cromwell is insanly fast with vet, have really good penetration for its cost (which is cheaper then PIV), can crush inf insanly good, can flank effectively and have, has non doc smoke with vet and can be upgraded with tank commander for fast vetting.

Sherman has bad AT but really great AI, perfect supportive tank which is really a big problem for inf sometimes.

T34 is decent tank, still quite good AI after buff, main advantage - its cheap + it comes with SU76 which is cheap aswell and can fight almost all tanks. Really good combination of AI + AT here.

Now lets look at PIV, it suppose to be everything from everything but at the end its just shit. With middle cost of all med tanks, with slightly better T34 AI and poor AT capabilities. It can fight only T34\Sherman effectively but have problems with call-ins and Cromwell. Allies TDs raping him and if there is Pershing\Comet\IS\ISU you wasted your fuel. If you need AI you go for ostwind if you need AT you go for Stug, but there is almost no reason to pick PIV if you are not snowballing your enemy.

PIV (ost one) is by far weakest medium tank overall. While T34 is weaker in terms of AT its much cheaper has really decent AI for its cost and still can deliver puches when flanking.

PIV on the other hand have to face tanks like Jacksons and Fireflyes which can destoy it really quickly, not to mention that its main damage still comes from MGs rathen then main gun, all tanks T34\85, Sherman, Cromwell, EZ and so on have by far better AI power and 85\EZ have better AT capabilities. But lets forget about doc tanks.

Cromwell is insanly fast with vet, have really good penetration for its cost (which is cheaper then PIV), can crush inf insanly good, can flank effectively and have, has non doc smoke with vet and can be upgraded with tank commander for fast vetting.

Sherman has bad AT but really great AI, perfect supportive tank which is really a big problem for inf sometimes.

T34 is decent tank, still quite good AI after buff, main advantage - its cheap + it comes with SU76 which is cheap aswell and can fight almost all tanks. Really good combination of AI + AT here.

Now lets look at PIV, it suppose to be everything from everything but at the end its just shit. With middle cost of all med tanks, with slightly better T34 AI and poor AT capabilities. It can fight only T34\Sherman effectively but have problems with call-ins and Cromwell. Allies TDs raping him and if there is Pershing\Comet\IS\ISU you wasted your fuel. If you need AI you go for ostwind if you need AT you go for Stug, but there is almost no reason to pick PIV if you are not snowballing your enemy.

There is nothing wrong with T3 non-specialized unit not working in the late game. Its typical of all rounders that they become obsolte faster than specialists. Such units are there to use their shock value and scale with vet, not to be build as an emergency measure in late game, this is exactly why ostwind and stug, t-34 and su76, do work in late game but P4 does not and this is how it is supposed to be.

There is nothing wrong with T3 non-specialized unit not working in the late game. Its typical of all rounders that they become obsolte faster than specialists. Such units are there to use their shock value and scale with vet, not to be build as an emergency measure in late game, this is exactly why ostwind and stug, t-34 and su76, do work in late game but P4 does not and this is how it is supposed to be.

Umm its not? Sherman can still destoy inf in late game, Cromwell can still crush inf and chase and finish off tanks with its insane speed buffs. So no, you are wrong. All mediums can be at least somehow be used in late game, while PIV is just meat shield usually.

P4 shocks because enemy wonders why you wasted your resources on pile of crap

Umm its not? Sherman can still destoy inf in late game, Cromwell can still crush inf and chase and finish off tanks with its insane speed buffs. So no, you are wrong. All mediums can be at least somehow be used in late game, while PIV is just meat shield usually.

Sherman is a AI specialist that has too much AT by mistake and that should be adressed. Cromwell is an all rounder and it works in late game only in big numbers or with vet, just like p4, but is cheaper so it amasses easier. This also should be adressed. T-34/85s good AI is also a problem with change that was aimed on 76 version only.

Sherman is a AI specialist that has too much AT by mistake and that should be adressed. Cromwell is an all rounder and it works in late game only in big numbers or with vet, just like p4, but is cheaper so it amasses easier. This also should be adressed.

So pretty much PIV shitty desing is gold excample of med balance? Cromwell dont have to be used in big numbers because of its vet buffs. One cromwell still can do things comet or firefly cant do. PIV on the other hand has its blitzcrieg and armor buff which wont save it from allies TDs. Vet3 giving him buffs but not even close to cromwell ones.

So pretty much PIV shitty desing is gold excample of med balance? Cromwell dont have to be used in big numbers because of its vet buffs. One cromwell still can do things comet or firefly cant do. PIV on the other hand has its blitzcrieg and armor buff which wont save it from allies TDs. Vet3 giving him buffs but not even close to cromwell ones.

Yeah, the design of p4 is by far the best medium tank design in this game. Makes it great if you use it in its role, but shitty when you, for some reason, start to think of it as a heavy. This is definitely one of the top units when it comes to fitting its aimed design and purpouse.

I would say give the PIV a slight increase at mid-long range penetration.

Allied medium tanks have the advantage at short range that combines well with their speed. PIV wants to slug it out at a distance using higher armour and better range penetration.

Umm its not? Sherman can still destoy inf in late game, Cromwell can still crush inf and chase and finish off tanks with its insane speed buffs. So no, you are wrong. All mediums can be at least somehow be used in late game, while PIV is just meat shield usually.

in an actual game the sherman will get completely wreck in late game once the superior axis armor arrive. All the infantry killing power the sherman possess hasn't saved the USF late game from being the worst of the 5 faction. Even the soviet with their "spam" t34-76 work better than the USF with their sherman.

the panzer 4 doesn't really fare a lot better, but it have superior support. I just think the panzer is a bit expensive atm.

I still think increasing the cromwell's size was a big mistake.

I would say give the PIV a slight increase at mid-long range penetration.

Allied medium tanks have the advantage at short range that combines well with their speed. PIV wants to slug it out at a distance using higher armour and better range penetration.

while I do think that the panzer 4 should have better gun than the allied medium, it should be done via a nerf to the cromwell and sherman. buffing the pz4's gun will negatively affect the t34-76.

I still think increasing the cromwell's size was a big mistake.

Wasn't the Cromwell's target size smaller than every other tank?

The real issue is the underperforming Panther.

accuracy on the move for both panzer 4 and panther from 0.5 to 0.75

in an actual game the sherman will get completely wreck in late game once the superior axis armor arrive. All the infantry killing power the sherman possess hasn't saved the USF late game from being the worst of the 5 faction. Even the soviet with their "spam" t34-76 work better than the USF with their sherman.

I'm not saying that Sherman is must have unit or it suppose to save late for USF, but its by far has bigger impact then PIV and it CAN be effective in late game, not good or bad but it CAN be effective, while PIV with our without vet is still half stug half ostwind which in quite bad at both AT and AI

why is this in discussion and the comet untouched