Hector´s way of fixing light vehicles and call ins

First I´ll once again repeat everything we know so far.

1. Light vehicles. Main problem of light vehicles right now is they are overperforming, yea its obvious. Its mainly because of 3 things combined together:
A. shock value - if you get light vehicle you will aplly too much pressure on field and possibly gain ground, only way how to counter light vehicle efficiently without crippling yourself too much is getting one for you as well.
B. Timing and lethality. They come really fast and often you don´t have counters for them or you must spend too much mp and munnition to put counter on field, while they just roam and bleed you like pig becuase of their damage output
C. Cost. Problem is that they don´t cost arm and leg, 70 fuel isn´t too much when you imagine its price you save when you srew it up and stick to call ins or its price you gain if you secced and get enemy fuel and cut off (even getting more fuel than 70)

So yea, when we sum it up they are too strong. But why are they ? They were already too many ideas how to change it but this one, and in my opinion the most import one, I never saw to be introduced. It is something you don´t even think about in game of fuel. ITS THEM MANPOWER COST. Yes it is and now I´ll tell you why.

All light vehicles are cheap in terms of mp cost and this makes them always good choice becuause spending 70 fuel isnt ibg deal as i pointed already and spending 200 mp for t70 or 240 for stuart is too low as well. Literaly they cost less than faction main line squad but outperform it drasticly.

Light vehicle will always bleed more mapower than it cost beucase of its low cost and its wiping/killing nature, if youre not completely stupid you will gain much more mp with it than losing and even if you lose it its not all that big deal because it paid for itself.

This is also the main reason why you have to field light vehicle when enemy fields one too, simply you don´t have enaught manpower to get some light at infantry and at gun to zone it out while fighting almost same nomber of squads like if enemy didnt get that light vehicle.

So all in all you´ll be at back foot because you´ll have to fight "free" light mobile vehicle without your own, while you get the same mp as enemy, whitch he can use to push your at gun and even win the gam.

By doing nothing else than increasing their cost to somewhere near 400MP I think we will fix them. Simply they won´t be always worth unit and if you lose them too soon you will be cripled for doing so, they will something like elite infantry or sniper, unit that can bleed a lot, can possibly change game but isn´t something you always go, for example if enemy field pak it would be better to go ranger not stuart (right now you can go both).

Also the other player can counter somehow counter light vehicle without getting his own because he would have manpower to field pak and how his ground at same manpower terms. Yes enemy with light vehicle will get more ground becuase of its mobile nature, but maybe it wont be enaught if you play well and then outplay him with medium tank and so on.

So all in all, light vehicle won´t be no brainer.



This simply change I want to implement for medium call ins as well. With bigger mp cost, they will still be good panic button that can save you when you lack fuel and possibly even turn the game, but it won´t be no brainer no more, because getting normal tiered vehicle will be much more efficient because you won´t lose so much manpower that can spend on squads.

Also player who will want to stick to call ins will hav to transit to normal tier units if he want to stay on manpower terms and this change would make call ins something like last hope button, but when you don´t succed them youre done because you wont be able to spam them.

This change doesnt apply to heavy call ins because they already cost a lot and are rather different cathegory.


Hope I explained it well.

if you have any other questions simply ask.

Hector

The general idea of raising manpower is good. However, the idea can be refined a little bit.

Simply raising the manpower this will prevent light vehicles from being used at all in the late-game (thus, depriving the respective armies of their utility).

This is, sort of, how we never see m3's or M20's built at all at that phase; their manpower cost is simply too prohibitive relative to how fast these vehicles can be nuked out of orbit. At the same time, reducing the manpower cost of those units simply calls for Cpt.Molo to get back from retirement.

How about we instead have:
- Change Light vehicles cost, so that they cost an-arm-and-leg if rushed (Hector's suggestion)
- When the player techs up to full (all tiers etc), the price (especially the manpower price) of light vehicles drops down significantly, to T-70 levels.

The same fix can be applied to non-tank vehicles (such as M20, M3, etc, etc).

The problem with getting an early pak is that 340 manpower is extremely crucial in the opening phases of the game. However, over the course of a long game, you will be getting some AT anyway. Thus, light vehicles won't be as powerful.

(the other thing that needs to be fixed about LVs, though, is them wipes-on-retreat)

Or we can give Ostheer Panzer 3 as a general light vehicle and let them be powerful since all factions have access to them.

Or we can give Ostheer Panzer 3 as a general light vehicle and let them be powerful since all factions have access to them.

Don´t get me wrong, but this thread is about fixing lights in general, not giving everyone the OP stuff.

And also I thnik you will never see p3 because relic doesnt have resources to create new modes plus p3 was medium tank not light one

Wow - I agree with both ideas - either give some simlar light vehicle to ost (must wipe squads and models in a similar way to allied vehicles and be immune to small arms fire), or increase the cost - spending more mp on a pak to deal with light vehicle makes ost too voulnerable to allied inf on the field, as they simply outnumber ost and get powerful units for teching (quite cheap when it comes to mp).

Don´t get me wrong, but this thread is about fixing lights in general, not giving everyone the OP stuff.

And also I thnik you will never see p3 because relic doesnt have resources to create new modes plus p3 was medium tank not light one

Point is, we don't agree at the core. I don't see a problem with LV meta. The same way we could say about MV meta, becasue after 12' we see medium vehicles only.

Game is divided into stages. First stage belongs to LV, second to MV and third to HV. I don't see problem with it at all.

Is T70 too powerful? Yes, but we can deal with that but lowering accuracy because right now it's best at everything. Think about performance, not how to kill them in general.
Making LV very expensive will just kill LV play.

Point is, we don't agree at the core. I don't see a problem with LV meta. The same way we could say about MV meta, becasue after 12' we see medium vehicles only.

Game is divided into stages. First stage belongs to LV, second to MV and third to HV. I don't see problem with it at all.

Is T70 too powerful? Yes, but we can deal with that but lowering accuracy because right now it's best at everything. Think about performance, not how to kill them in general.
Making LV very expensive will just kill LV play.

By this change you won´t kill them, they just won´t be no brainer. If enemy gets pak before you get light vehicle you will spend your manpower elsewhere and when he isnt prepared you get light vehicle. Or you get it because you think it can pay for itself or force enemy to some commader, it just won´t be no brainer as it is right now

By this change you won´t kill them, they just won´t be no brainer. If enemy gets pak before you get light vehicle you will spend your manpower elsewhere and when he isnt prepared you get light vehicle. Or you get it because you think it can pay for itself or force enemy to some commader, it just won´t be no brainer as it is right now

But you don't need AT Gun.

I don't why but ike 90% of players always pick Pak40 as Ostheer while you can safely pick PzGrens, use them as AI and once you see V, just upgrade with double schrecks.

And simply nerf their performance if anything.

Wow - I agree with both ideas - either give some simlar light vehicle to ost (must wipe squads and models in a similar way to allied vehicles and be immune to small arms fire), or increase the cost - spending more mp on a pak to deal with light vehicle makes ost too voulnerable to allied inf on the field, as they simply outnumber ost and get powerful units for teching (quite cheap when it comes to mp).

Really i can undeastand ppl, thay whine that light tanks wipe so its need nerf but in antoher side lets add wipe for ostheer , i can undestand where logic there ?

I really dont see problem with t-70, only need up MP price, he come last from light vehicle, so both axis faction can be ready for it. And just retreut. Idea of light vehicles is about dont give opponent herass and cap points without AT cover.

Easier way to fix lights is just to make them take damage from small arms fire.

Imo light vehicle could be fixed as follows:

1)Armored cars

Reduce DPS to 50%-75% increase penetration so their relative DPS remain the same.

Change DPs curve so that that they benefit less from range (tank hmgs also)
Reintroduce 221

Remove "point blank" mechanism from this vehicles and from all tanks weapons including hmgs, infantry should maintain cover bonus against vehicles since vehicles can close in fast and lose little by closing in.

2)Light tanks
Reduce DPS to about 50%-75% vs infantry (use target tables if necessary)

Make 222 a fuel manpower upgrade that also boost armor a bit.

Use target tables to reduce damage of certain weapon vs light vehicles like ATGs.

3) delay light tanks a bit and medium tanks

Aim of this change is to reduce the shock value of light vehicles vs infantry but increase their use time and ability to survive...

I don't think it'll take much to fix them. Honestly, just making the Stuart deal 60 damage to infantry and only AOEing 1-2 models maximum means the vehicle will be a less powerful generalist and also less no-brainer.

T-70 just needs its AOE to no longer hit the entire squad by limiting it to 2 models. Still decent AI and can chase wounded squads down, but no sudden drive-bys that wipe out entire squads in 2-3 hits. The reason for only this change is that the T-70 arrives the latest of the light tank units and counters generally are on the field unless the Soviets have bled the enemy with minimal in return. If we're talking the combination of Penal and Guards, then just adjust Penal veterancy at vet 3 and the rate they gain veterancy.

222 needs a price increase, that's a given with its dirt cheap cost and the bug with its MG fixed. 250-300 manpower and 30-35 fuel with a working MG. Still would like to see the unit reworked to a skrimishers and less of the dirt cheap scouting generalist once changed.

AEC just needs to have its cannon not really be able to harm infantry since it's mainly there to defeat vehicles and has a decently powerful MG.

All these vehicles can then also be priced anywhere from 260-300 manpower.

A damage vs infantry or AOE reduction is more than enough to limit their impact significantly and make them situational.

I don't like that idea at all, it shoehorns Light Vehicles entirely into a shock unit that you would never build again once you rush it out. It would make absolutely no sense for a T-70 to cost 350 manpower but a T-34/76 to only cost 300. Besides, that doesn't even fix the problem that the insane damage and squad wipe potency allows Light Vehicles to effortlessly wipe infantry squads with often no chance to escape and in situations that the Axis player didn't necessarily make a mistake to get in.

We should be increasing strategic diversity; there should be some situations where you wouldn't want to build a T-70, there should be some situations where you would want to build 2, enforcing units to have a predefined and inflexible spot in the meta is bad for gameplay, it limits strategic flexibility and makes matchups predictable and repetitive.

After nerfing Light Tanks, we should be finding ways to make Light Vehicles have more utility and use in the late game, not less.

After nerfing Light Tanks, we should be finding ways to make Light Vehicles have more utility and use in the late game, not less.

Strongly agreed - in spite of the well-known problems, the late-game effectiveness of many light vehicles is dubious already and should be thought through as well.

(Is it even possible for a Kubelwagen to hit vet 3)

Easier way to fix lights is just to make them take damage from small arms fire.

wait what, are you serious ?
If they took damage from small arms they would be dead in seconds, if you want to get that idea try hmg with incendiary rounds against quad for example

After nerfing Light Tanks, we should be finding ways to make Light Vehicles have more utility and use in the late game, not less.

How much more utility, though? AEC has LOS at 50 and the Tread Shot when vetted (just fix its accuracy and tracking), Stuart can shutdown vehicles and tanks that attempt to charge in while T-70 can both spot and capture. Furthermore, all these vehicles can harass infantry attempting to capture to some extent.

It may be the fact lights may be too expensive by the late game in terms of fuel (and manpower for a few) so maybe their prices could go down with fuel tech.

If we're talking about the actual cars like M3 and M20, the former needs some sort of support upgrade so it can sit back when needed and to be dirt cheap by late game for use as a disposable scout; the latter needs to cost less manpower so it can be a cheaper scout that also plants those deadly mines to halt tanks assaults and a veterancy rate boost so it can actually vet up.

I don't think it'll take much to fix them. Honestly, just making the Stuart deal 60 damage to infantry and only AOEing 1-2 models maximum means the vehicle will be a less powerful generalist and also less no-brainer.

T-70 just needs its AOE to no longer hit the entire squad by limiting it to 2 models. Still decent AI and can chase wounded squads down, but no sudden drive-bys that wipe out entire squads in 2-3 hits. The reason for only this change is that the T-70 arrives the latest of the light tank units and counters generally are on the field unless the Soviets have bled the enemy with minimal in return. If we're talking the combination of Penal and Guards, then just adjust Penal veterancy at vet 3 and the rate they gain veterancy.

222 needs a price increase, that's a given with its dirt cheap cost and the bug with its MG fixed. 250-300 manpower and 30-35 fuel with a working MG. Still would like to see the unit reworked to a skrimishers and less of the dirt cheap scouting generalist once changed.

AEC just needs to have its cannon not really be able to harm infantry since it's mainly there to defeat vehicles and has a decently powerful MG.

All these vehicles can then also be priced anywhere from 260-300 manpower.

ahm...u know that u get a bofors for only 30 fuel?
This unit is the most OP unit when u look to its cost/ effective design.

This 30 fuel unit can deal with whole armys...while the 222 will be killed in 1 secound by the bofors....which wipe 4 units on its retreat (u tried to flank a brits look down area....but u will do it never again...caus of this OP unit design)

I think CP requirement should be the right tool for limiting the medium call ins. I would get rid of 0CP T34/85 for sure. Its obviously a bad design..

How much more utility, though?

When I say utility I mean any reasons for them to be build in the late game. Filling them all out with cheesy abilities is not the best way to do it. A fuel cost decrease, say 50, in exchange for a massive damage nerf would be great, because then they are cheap enough to sacrifice in exchange for a rocket artillery piece or cheap enough to make them worth building just for their sight range.