Ostheer - The Dead Circle vs USF

Remove USFs mortar and give RETs flame thrower upgrade non-doctrinal. Also remove the ability for RETs to get weapon rack upgrades. Same goes for sappers. I think this is just another example of power creep imo. Ostheer needs to pay an arm and a leg to get AT weapons on their infantry (Pgrens with shrecks) while UKF and USFs can get decent AT weapons on any of their troops.

Zooks are ok but saying PIAT ok is really stretching it. Also UK is weird when Sappers using Bren better than IS.

USF motar just proved that relic staff is full of a bunch of dumbass. Don't expect a balance change any time soon.

Zooks are ok but saying PIAT ok is really stretching it. Also UK is weird when Sappers using Bren better than IS.

Im not really saying that zooks on RETs are OP I'm just saying how USFs don't really lose any AI power by getting more AT power. When you get Shreks on pgrens you lose half their DPS making them pretty bad vs infantry whereas USFs and UKFs don't have to put them on expensive infantry to gain some AT power. Just give them to your cheap sappers and RETs.

If we take away zooks/ piats from sappers and RETs then it force Allies to choose between more AT and less AI or more AI and no AT since it'll have to go on their mainline infantry

Main problem is US Vet 3 makes riflemen invincible. Need to change the veterancy to something more reasonable than to make them invincible to all fire and not have to worry about cover.

That and this game's god-awful engine. In COH1, USF actually had to flank and Wehrmach had to micro machine guns to suppress. In this game all everyone does is blob. Bad game design is bad.

Well, 4x Grens with Jaeger upgrade can do quite well becasue it gives Grens chance to fire on the move but it's not best solution.

Well, 4x Grens with Jaeger upgrade can do quite well becasue it gives Grens chance to fire on the move but it's not best solution.

DPS of g43s are basically the same at long range as the kar98s

Im not really saying that zooks on RETs are OP I'm just saying how USFs don't really lose any AI power by getting more AT power. When you get Shreks on pgrens you lose half their DPS making them pretty bad vs infantry whereas USFs and UKFs don't have to put them on expensive infantry to gain some AT power. Just give them to your cheap sappers and RETs.

If we take away zooks/ piats from sappers and RETs then it force Allies to choose between more AT and less AI or more AI and no AT since it'll have to go on their mainline infantry

I'd say that giving RET zooks is comparable to giving pios a flame thrower. It takes a worthless squad and makes it meh at one thing and still worthless for everything else.

I do think along the lines of making a definite choice is good concerning; is this unit going to be ai or at. Pgrens really make you think because they're going to suck at killing infantry if you upgrade them. True enough, that's a much harder and more expensive decision than zooks on RETs. But, it's not exactly like people spam Rear Echelons.... At a certain point, ie every other unit, you do make the choice. Captain is a beast with bars now. So do I make a world killer or put zooks on him and make him crappy against infantry? Rifles are the same.

Wehrmacht is much more severely hindered when it comes to flexibility, but it has everything it needs in most every situation. I've found it much more important to anticipate what units i'll need when with wehr than usf.

The USF mortar is good, but it's not as good as the Wehrmacht mortar. Krupp stahl ja? The problem is in the matchup, as stated by aussie. A mortar is near useless against rifles for those USF players with a pulse. You have to have one to counter the USF mortar though, which hurts as it's manpower for a very limited use (which isn't fighting the damn rifles) and Wehrmacht just sucks on the move which makes the usf mortar seem better. It's team weapons vs no team weapons with plenty of ways to beat team weapons.

Need only to nerf the usf mortar, but not remove. If you copy-paste russian mortar, usf play will stop to spam mortars amd like a balanced faction he will use it like a normal support weapon.

DPS of g43s are basically the same at long range as the kar98s

Yea but with them, they can move and shoot.

I'd say that giving RET zooks is comparable to giving pios a flame thrower. It takes a worthless squad and makes it meh at one thing and still worthless for everything else.

I do think along the lines of making a definite choice is good concerning; is this unit going to be ai or at. Pgrens really make you think because they're going to suck at killing infantry if you upgrade them. True enough, that's a much harder and more expensive decision than zooks on RETs. But, it's not exactly like people spam Rear Echelons.... At a certain point, ie every other unit, you do make the choice. Captain is a beast with bars now. So do I make a world killer or put zooks on him and make him crappy against infantry? Rifles are the same.

Wehrmacht is much more severely hindered when it comes to flexibility, but it has everything it needs in most every situation. I've found it much more important to anticipate what units i'll need when with wehr than usf.

The USF mortar is good, but it's not as good as the Wehrmacht mortar. Krupp stahl ja? The problem is in the matchup, as stated by aussie. A mortar is near useless against rifles for those USF players with a pulse. You have to have one to counter the USF mortar though, which hurts as it's manpower for a very limited use (which isn't fighting the damn rifles) and Wehrmacht just sucks on the move which makes the usf mortar seem better. It's team weapons vs no team weapons with plenty of ways to beat team weapons.

But it's a copy-paste Wehrmacht mortar... Just with better veterancy.

problems are:
- USF weapong racks where the most shitty/cheap unit can grab 2 zooks or 2 bars and rekt left and right
- vehicle crews where these units vet instantly, get access to OP crit repair, reps faster than pios
- teching rewards with one infantry good squad and teching does not require RE's to get them
- Ostheer spends shhiet lot amount of time to build tiers and get battle phases upgrades, has one of the most expensive tiers (in manpower mostly)
- USF mortar is most OP mortar in game and can be build instantly
- most OP nades upgrade (where soviets must tech for mollies and AT nades and only most useless cons can use them, USF got 2 in 1 upgrade, and smoke nade for USF slows down tanks, and has long range)
- stuart at the price of T-70 +40 MP that can stun heaviest tanks (really Lelic?) and kills infantry as good as T-70, and has better armor than it and more HP


These are just few OP stuff for USF, the list is much longer, Ostheer in the current balance is the most shitty faction ever

Yea but with them, they can move and shoot.

Grens with kar98s can move and shoot too. I'm basically saying that g43s don't help your DPS on the move when firing at long range.

But it's a copy-paste Wehrmacht mortar... Just with better veterancy.

I'm pretty sure it's barrage is 1 second faster as well.

Grens with kar98s can move and shoot too. I'm basically saying that g43s don't help your DPS on the move when firing at long range.

But they do, because G43s only have a 0.80 accuracy penalty from moving while Kar's are halved. Not that it's necessarily enough like Australian implied...but the distinction is definitely there.

But they do, because G43s only have a 0.80 accuracy penalty from moving while Kar's are halved. Not that it's necessarily enough like Australian implied...but the distinction is definitely there.

i stand corrected! Thanks i didnt know G43s have a different moving accuracy penalty.

Ostheer is my favourite faction but currently they are helpless vs USF.

Ostheer was designed as a static faction:

Grens with LMGs need to stand still.

PzGrens (hardly assault unit, works better when you let enemy close to you).

All basic infantry units need to stand still to be effective.

Panzergrenadiere were overnerfed. Or to word it better: They were balanced when Soviets were the only Allied faction in the game. Then US and UK came in with their double Bars and Brens which totally outclass PGs and make it suicidal to close in. PGs could need a great increase in their health to be able to withstand this firepower. LMG Grens can at least fire back with one MG42. PGs are an absolute liability.

It's not a deal versus Soviets since OST and SU have really good balance between.

Thus I think alongside with buffed PGs Conscripts should get something for the lategame. Once T4 is set up there should be a single DP-28 upgrade for 50 munitions. PGs would turn into an upgrade from Grens and thus both factions would have to offer a bit more lategame.

the Wehrmacht mortar has longer range than the usf mortar. you can't underestimate that. the grw can shoot the usf 81mm while being invulnerable to it.

everybody freaks out about how good the usf mortar is, but it really isn't that good. it's good, don't get me wrong, but its not samson's jawbone or anything like that. it's just the faction design/match up that makes it so much more effective. if Wehrmacht had a better ability to assault early game the usf mortar would be useless as usf had nothing to defend it really. if you could run some infantry at it, like usf can against wehr once the mg42 retreats/dies it would be worthless. basically the grw depends on the mg42 and grens to let it do its work, the usf mortar can just go right up to the front and start barking since almost nothing can take a run at it.

again, the problem isn't the mortar so much as it is the match up. in this particular match up, its very difficult for wehr to counter the usf mortar. lack of a decent light vehicle, and the stuart as a super counter to light vehicles makes it even worse.

in my experience, as wehr, you have to get your mortar shooting at their mortar as soon as possible and as much as possible to minimize the damage it does and keep it off the field. as a usf player, I much prefer the pack Howie to the mortar anyway.

I don't think its hopeless, but the match up definitely favors USF.

the Wehrmacht mortar has longer range than the usf mortar. you can't underestimate that. the grw can shoot the usf 81mm while being invulnerable to it.

everybody freaks out about how good the usf mortar is, but it really isn't that good. it's good, don't get me wrong, but its not samson's jawbone or anything like that. it's just the faction design/match up that makes it so much more effective. if Wehrmacht had a better ability to assault early game the usf mortar would be useless as usf had nothing to defend it really. if you could run some infantry at it, like usf can against wehr once the mg42 retreats/dies it would be worthless. basically the grw depends on the mg42 and grens to let it do its work, the usf mortar can just go right up to the front and start barking since almost nothing can take a run at it.

again, the problem isn't the mortar so much as it is the match up. in this particular match up, its very difficult for wehr to counter the usf mortar. lack of a decent light vehicle, and the stuart as a super counter to light vehicles makes it even worse.

in my experience, as wehr, you have to get your mortar shooting at their mortar as soon as possible and as much as possible to minimize the damage it does and keep it off the field. as a usf player, I much prefer the pack Howie to the mortar anyway.

I don't think its hopeless, but the match up definitely favors USF.

Please don't come to the forums and spread blatant lies/misinformation.

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=grw34_81mm_mortar_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m1_81mm_mortar_mp

They both have the same range. The USF mortar shoots 20% faster, has 40% better scatter, and gets a scatter bonus at vet1 instead of counterbarrage. The only thing the Ost mortar has going for it is that it packs up faster, and has more penetration against vehicles. This is not even a close match-up in mortar strength, the USF is clearly superior.

Then you honestly have seen much. This one is actually pretty tame compared to other things in coh2 past.

Crushing with T70, much?

Crushing with T70, much?

I would choose crushing T70 over current state between USF and OST