Soviet infantry effective vs Germany infantry

With infantry, it is very difficult to figure out how effective they really are since situation varies depending on lots of different factors. Cover, upgrades, etc.

I am playing 2v2 with a USF teammate if that matters. Though I play 1v1 now and then.

I know what I'm asking is quite extensive so I don't really expect everyone to answer everything. Please just answer whatever you want, being as general or as specific as you like.

Soviet infantry list
- Engineer
- Engineer + Flammer
- Conscript
- Conscript + SMG upgrade
- Penal Battalion
- Penal Battalion + Flammer
- Guards Rifle
- Guards Rifle + LMG upgrade
- Shock Troops

So I'm unsure about a lot of things.

I know that Guards Rifle are weak anti-infantry without the LMG but how weak? As conscripts? Or weaker? And how much stronger are they with SMGs? As strong as penal battalions?

What about Penal Battalions? How much stronger are they than conscripts? I tend move then in closer range because of the flamers. However, they have rifles like conscripts (though better) right? Should I be keeping them at long or at least medium range?

I understand that shock troops are considered super awesome but what does that equate do? Like could one squad defeat two upgraded panzer grenadier squad?

My teammate plays the USF and loves infantry so a comparison between them and riflemen or paratroopers might help as well.

Wehr infantry list
Pioneer
Pioneer + Flamer
Grenadier
Grenadier + G43
Grenadier + MG32
Panzergrenadiers
Panzergrenadiers + G43
Osttruppen
Assault Grenadiers
Stormtroopers

OKW infantry list
Sturmpioneer
Volksgrenadiers
Volksgrenadiers + STG-44
Obersoldaten

There's a lot to consider here. And I think you are trying to compare it as if they were all fighting on a perfectly flat grass plain. Types of cover and direction of attack make all the difference in the world in this game. A conscript squad in green cover is going to do quite a bit of damage to a panzergrenadier squad charging down the middle of a road (negative cover). But if the P-gren goes around a house where the conscript can't see/shoot and the P-gren comes around the corner at close range it will waste the conscript squad.

In general I'll say this. If the infantryman is carrying a bolt action rifle hes going to do his best at long range in green cover and stationary. Most LMG are about like bolt-action rifles - best left in green cover and or stationary, most LMG can't fire on the move although there are exceptions. If hes carrying a semi-auto rifle hes best at mid range and can fire on the move. If hes got STG44, only fight it at long range, unless you have SMG. Even if you have SMG try a non-direct approach.

Flamers are different too because they do bonus damage to infantry in cover. They also cause infantry charging directly at them to seek ground when hit by the flame, so they are an interesting way to counter SMG equipped infantry. Well and then there are different types of SMGs, Thompsons actually have pretty decent range for SMG, grease guns and MP40s have terrible range but can do high damage at point blank. It's pretty complicated really.

I don't know. CoH2 combat system isn't like SC2 where you can just compare DPS. There are considerably more variables and combat mechanics at work. I'll say this too, all units are much more accurate stationary than moving. So use your abilities to force enemy units to displace and keep your stationary - while all the while watching out for the things that cause you to displace - grenades and such.

you also have to consider grenades, vet, upgrades, mortar or mg support, different abilities, etc.

to get a good feeling for that either play the game or use janne 252s cheat command mod 2 to test all that. (you can us my map called "testmap", its a straight map without any objects /shameless plug)

Soviet infantry list
- Engineer
- Engineer + Flammer
- Conscript
- Conscript + SMG upgrade
- Penal Battalion
- Penal Battalion + Flammer
- Guards Rifle
- Guards Rifle + LMG upgrade
- Shock Troops

Engis can pick some fights at long range when behind green cover or inside a building.
Engis + flamer to clear buildings.
Cons - way weaker than Penals. No matter what range but hey have nice utility
Cons + PPSH - good at close range but still not that good. Vet 3 PPSH Cons vs Vet 3 Penals with flamer are very, very similar at point blank tho they are hopeless at mid/far range.
Penal - good at all ranges. Vet 3 Penals vs Vet 3 Grens (no LMG) win easily.
Penals + flamers - like above + flamer.
Guards - good long range infantry. Even better with DP28 upgrade. Can stand against any Axis' infantry if you keep range.
Shocks - they melt everything at close range and they have an armor. 2x PzGrens can beat them, but under some circumstances, shocks can beat double PzGrens.

Moving to Stage Office: SU section.

www.googledrive.com/host/0B7gwy65JLbSRUW4ySm0tRnB5azA

This link may help. All the good stat stuff thanks to our amazing walking encyclopedia Cruzz.

If you find these stats too detailed and complex, just use graphs from there and take the stats from this site:

http://stat.coh2.hu/

Hope it helps.

Soviet infantry list
- Engineer
- Engineer + Flammer
- Conscript
- Conscript + SMG upgrade
- Penal Battalion
- Penal Battalion + Flammer
- Guards Rifle
- Guards Rifle + LMG upgrade
- Shock Troops

Engineer: meant to engage ALL other troops at long range but they won't defeat anything else other than others Pio (at long/medium range). They are mostly supplementary DPS.
With flamer they can be great at anti garrison duties and have decent DPS but reminder that you need some other units with them to soak damage.

Conscript: meant to cap, build sandbags, be your snare platform (once upgraded) and meatshields. You can use merge to keep other elite or higher vet units on the front line.
You want them at closer range against long range units such as LMGs, Grens, Prostruppen, Volks, etc. They might not win against more expensive units but they will trade cost effectively.
YOu want them at longer range against good close range units such as PG, Pios, SturmPios, etc.
PPSH is good, as long as you get your Cons to vet 3 as they will be more resistant and lose less models on approach.
Conscripts heavy strats have fallen of popularity in favor of the recent buff Penals.

Penals: good at all ranges but mostly at close/medium range. Think about them as 6 man Rifleman focus on AI duties (as they have no snares). Their damage output is deceivable, due to both the flamer and their vet 1 ability "To the last man" (4% accuracy, -2% weapon cooldown, and -3% received accuracy per member lost). While they have good AI DPS and scale well, reminder that they are susceptible to any light vehicle rush. Either tech or combining them with Guards is a good call.

Guards: without their DP upgrade, they are still better at AI than conscripts. The PTRS is if i'm not mistaken, slightly better than their base mosins even against infantry. While the DPS improves their DPS, specially at longer range, you mostly want it for their utility. You want them behind cover and at long range.

Shocktroops: expensive but hard hitting if they manage to close the gap. I'll say you shouldn't get more than 2 since the mp drain would be real after that. Make use of both grenades, specially smoke to get closer.


Some examples (this is mostly vacuum scenarios at equal vet level):
-Shocktroops will defeat 2 PG upgraded with schrecks since it's basically fighting a single PG for the most part (besides lucky snipes through schrecks), specially if they can approach without getting shot at (smoke). Focus on putting each squad to 2 models, since the AT moves from hand to hand. Use nades and avoid their nuke nades.
-Penals do drop theirs own and the opponents models fast. So be cautious. If upgraded with flamers, i do think they will defeat anything at close range at equal vet and cover. At long range, they'll lose against upgraded LMG squads.
-Guards are elite long range unit. Make use of conscripts sandbags for increased performance.

If you include call-ins then OKW also have the following:
Jager Light Infantry
Fallschirmjagers
Panzerfusiliers

Flamer penal can kill anything apart from sturmpio and assault gren in CQ
Guards can kill most things at long range with upgrades. Guards need to stay in Green, and works best defending.

Engineers are engineers. They lay mines, explosives, cap, and are bonus DPS.
Conscripts are walking snares, and dependent on doctrine, pseudo shock troops and engineers (repairing tanks).
Shock troops are CQ only.

Comments only relating to 2v2.

Previously I was maintaining 3 conscripts per game. I am going to change the balance to 2 conscripts, 2 guards (or 2 shock troops) and 2 penals.

If I need more infantry I would add 1 more guard rifle (and with 2 shock troops I shouldn't need more infantry). If I need less (or can't afford) then I'll reduce the number of penals to 1.

If I have an extra manpower beyond that, with no corresponding fuel, it would probably be better spend on HMGs, mortars or AT guns.

What do you think?

----

Slightly off topic but the quick question about smoke. Are you supposed to put smoke on your own troops so they cannot be seen, or the enemy troops so they can't see you?

they nerf the conscripts really really badly that's what i can say from my point of view as a soviet player

they nerf the conscripts really really badly that's what i can say from my point of view as a soviet player

conscript (240mp) are beaten easily by grenadier except at close but by the time you get there, you would already have lost 1/2 models and still get beaten.

so they are worst that grenadier and grenadier got FREE panerfaust, FREE nade with incredible range and a FREE lmg upgrade.

and still i would prefer 10 times to have conscript squad with osther than these conscripts.
Conscripts are fine in the current state, because you don't manage to make them win engagement doesn't mean they need a buff.

their only downside is the 50 fuel package you got to buy to get AT nade & molov.

But on the other hand, they are the most versatile unit in game, most durable (6 men) for their price and got awesome features (merge & trip wire).
I won't even speak about the commanders which promote cons like the one which give them AT rifle, AT nade & AT mines or rapid conscription ...

Btw, they were not nerfed. Relic reduced long range damage and increased at close which is what they are intended to do.
That must be one of the few things RELIC did well.

no sir le_saucisson_masque you forgot the OKW sturm pioneers which is too ahead for early game

no sir le_saucisson_masque you forgot the OKW sturm pioneers which is too ahead for early game

Penal Penal Penal Penal Penal Penal Penal

imo cons are weak. they wont win vs any other infantry and it's not like they are cheap enough to be spammed more than other infantry to outnumber them.
the only way to have cons do something is by buying expensive molotov and atnade. oorah is nice but they cannot flank without molotov and even with molotov if any squad cover the team weapon cons will be beat and teamweapon will setup again without even retreating.
merging is interesting but it only make sense if you use cons as "support"
unit with molotov and atnade (which cost a lot moreover if u only use 1-2 cons).

in all recent game casted, every single soviet who built cons as core lost (check it if u don't believe). it's the proof conscipts aren't in the actual meta, which is kinf of sad for a basic infantry

le_saucisson_masque said "Conscripts are fine in the current state, because you don't manage to make them win engagement doesn't mean they need a buff." -it kind of do because they are weaker infantry (strenght speaking) for the same price and need big investment to have utility. to be viable at something they need techfree molotov/atnade (or maybe have a single tech for both) or a weaponpack to have them scall (cuz cons do not squall atall atm).

did you know that conscripts beat grenadiers / STG volksgrandiers or any other ennemy squad ?

This game is all about using your unit at the best,


a cons vs a gren without cover at long range -> gren beat cons everytime.
but if you close a little the distance and go to distance 15, conscripts DPS are almost the same than grenadiers DPS BUT when grenadier loose a model, they loose 25% of their dps which make them loose.

and vet3 conscripts VS vet3 STG volks -> Cons absolutely rekt them.
vet 3 cons & ppsh VS vet 2 PZGREN -> cons rekt them again.

can you equip the main other faction units with AT RIFLE - Anti tank mines - anti personnal mines - rush for 10 amo - MERGE - lay sandbag - ..

but yeah, if you send a conscript head to head with any other ennemy unit, it will get killed. that's just not the way they works IMO.

today, i did a automatch vs a randomn top 100 okw, i did 4 cons to cap very fast the map -> 2 maxim to win long range engagement -> 2 guards (very good & very cheap when you merge them with cons).

The game was over in 15 min.

on the other hand, i agree that molotov & at nade are very expensive to unlock & it should be less expensive.

Molos are on 100 and 15 so I think they are fine. AT nades upgrade recompense low T2 and T1 costs tech and it shouldn't be touched imo.

"did you know that conscripts beat grenadiers / STG volksgrandiers or any other ennemy squad" -they don't 9/10 time. closing means losing 1-2 models. not enough strenght remaining to win. i don't know about the ppshpack tho. with 4 cons, molot/atnade hospital, t2 and 2 maxims how could guard be there in time ? (where yer opponent at your level ?)