Remove the flamer from penals or

Penals are over performing.

Not so long ago the consensus was that rifle companies flamer unlock on riflemen was an extremely bad idea, since riflemen are front line infantry, 5 man squads and durable.

For some reason history has repeated itself and we're back but this time with a 6 man durable front line squad with flamers.

This doesn't work.

Flamers work on support units because they're not durable and ideally need support, this isn't the case for penals and thus is broken.

soviets have plenty of cover denial and building clearing abilities.

no flamer = 2x dp
or flamer to conscript

no flamer = 2x dp
or flamer to conscript

Did you even read his thread? Flamers(non doc) to conscripts would mean a even more improved version of old Riflecompany.

Penals are fine, they are nowhere near as good as riflemen no at nades, or smokes and they definitely need at support, by nerfing them u could just bury t1 again.

They are no where near OP as flamers were on rifleman.

some nice MG34/42 placement can deny strafniki pushes pretty easily. unlike it was with the cancerous rifleman..

strafniki might be strong, but i wouldnt rate them OP. unless penals are combined with sniper + guards, then it starts to become cancerous..

Penals are fine, they are nowhere near as good as riflemen no at nades, or smokes and they definitely need at support, by nerfing them u could just bury t1 again.

It doesn't matter if they don't have smoke or AT nades, the fact that a flamer is on front line infantry is what is broken.

no flamer = 2x dp
or flamer to conscript

I logged in to say you ''lol shut up''

No flamer = add something else what will perform like double bar or m1919, simple. Also give them smoke and normal grenades. And they are not overperfoming.

It doesn't matter if they don't have smoke or AT nades, the fact that a flamer is on front line infantry is what is broken.

It matters. A lot. It just means that you can close up with any vehicle you have and do impossible amounts of damage with its gun. Or you can just crush them. The lack of AI nades and smoke also means they loose to mgs, especially as mortar is in different tier.

And its not even that the unit has no AT, its the whole tier that has no AT at all.

It matters. A lot. It just means that you can close up with any vehicle you have and do impossible amounts of damage with its gun. Or you can just crush them. The lack of AI nades and smoke also means they loose to mgs, especially as mortar is in different tier.

That is not early game, were penals are over performing.

AT nades are a vet 1 unlock and smoke is an upgrade, these all come a little later.

It matters. A lot. It just means that you can close up with any vehicle you have and do impossible amounts of damage with its gun. Or you can just crush them. The lack of AI nades and smoke also means they loose to mgs, especially as mortar is in different tier.

And its not even that the unit has no AT, its the whole tier that has no AT at all.

There aren't any vehicles on the filed that would worry tier 1, and even with a quick scout car or luchs, guards and AT nades work perfectly if that is even needed since a T70 can be out at a similar time.

That is not early game, were penals are over performing.

AT nades are a vet 1 unlock and smoke is an upgrade, these all come a little later.

They are powerful early game, still mgs are available to both axis factions from the get go. Usf nades were also pretty early since you could get vet one with the ability, and the upgrade is pretty cheap and accessible, the only reason not to get it first is that you get the squad with the tier making your force even scarier.

So, in fact, both units are really powerful early game, but riflemen were a lot better in mid and late game. Penals are much like a one trick pony, they cant even throw short fuse nade or deal enough damage to kill the 222 fast, like shocks do, and the lack of smoke is pretty bad against long range infantry or mgs.

Looks like no one pointed why flamethrowers on main line infantry (what penals are cause you can spam then from early game and then support them with elite infantry - guards) is bad.

It removes positioning and cover play from enemy.

Axis main line infantry have 2 options - stick to heavy cover/ house and they win the fight by superior positioning (this can be countered by grenades, whitch if fine because you lose munition every time enemy outplay you) but against penals they cannot.

Flamethrower puts them into lose-lose situation. You´ve got house by superior play, well f*ck you I have cheap 60 munny upgrade that hardcounters any green cover/ house play on mainline infantry.

You stick to play in the open, hahaha, youre done, my penals DPS outmatch gren DPS (after vet 2 completely because of crazy accuraccy bonus).


On the other side having flametrower on enginners / squadshy squads is fine because you need 2 squads to counter 1 squad in house and if enemy have 2 squads as well there (so he outplays you in that part of map), then he can hop out from house, kill enginners and hop once again inside and win engangement or you can outplay him by rushing house when he is in the open so this is 100% fine.


Hovewer when 1 mainline ifantry always outmatch you regarding of positioning and numers, then there is something wrong.


Lmg is nowhere as OP on mainline infantry as flametrower because you still can win against LMG if you get superior cover and lmg can do nothing then.



Hope I explaying you well, why flametrower on mainline infantry will always be bad, regardeless of other utility.

Oh and I forget penals get also ooraah so they can close the distance really fast and thust even playing at long range wont give you any advantage, because once they get at flametrower range you lost your position and possibly even engangement.

So, in fact, both units are really powerful early game, but riflemen were a lot better in mid and late game. Penals are much like a one trick pony, they cant even throw short fuse nade or deal enough damage to kill the 222 fast, like shocks do, and the lack of smoke is pretty bad against long range infantry or mgs.

Guards counter 222 well and ooraah is really similar to smoke if we are talking about closing the gap against long range infantry

or molotov for both penal and cons idk they need something to clear the building

Guards counter 222 well and ooraah is really similar to smoke if we are talking about closing the gap against long range infantry

Well, ooraah could get removed, it may be a little to much. But still, the penal is a unit with so many disadvantages, it should keep its flamer as a unique unit and faction benefit. Especially as this very same faction can do the same thing to axis units by merging cons into engies.

They are powerful early game, still mgs are available to both axis factions from the get go.

Since when?

Since when?

Well okw doesn't have it before building first tier, either tier. But hey, do soviets have penals in HQ? Okw also has LV in T0...

Well okw doesn't have it before building first tier, either tier. But hey, do soviets have penals in HQ? Okw also has LV in T0...

The battlegroup HQ opening is really weak now, especially vs a soviet rifle command opening. So you are forced to go for mech HQ which delays your MG even further. I would not count on the MG countering penals in the early game as OKW.