Luftwaffe Ground Forces Faction Concept

I like this faction but... what would Relic do with this?

The faction concept seems interesting enough, would defintely give it a try. However, I think the Aggression & Defensive part in Tier 2 & 3 doesn't seem clearly different. At the last tier you can clearly see the diffence: A mobile tank vs a stationary tank destroyer, but in previous tiers, the two just seems fairly similar, not much seperable between them

The faction concept seems interesting enough, would defintely give it a try. However, I think the Aggression & Defensive part in Tier 2 & 3 doesn't seem clearly different. At the last tier you can clearly see the diffence: A mobile tank vs a stationary tank destroyer, but in previous tiers, the two just seems fairly similar, not much seperable between them

I agree instead of Hetzer vs Marder, how about Hetzer and Flak 88? The Flak is the signature weapon of the Luft groundforces.

I don;t hate the idea, but the main problem is that it A) still takes so much from other German factions, B) Based on early war, and C) Just mish-mashes non-German Axis into a single faction.

In addition, there's got to be a way for Relic to milk the shit out of us again with DLC stuff via commanders, can't have all the good stuff in one package.

Ultimately I'd prefer if the ideas were just put as commanders for Ostheer and OKW. It's not like we NEED another faction.

Cant we just add the SS?

They could have a special retreat ability that destroys all the buildings they run past during their retreat

I don;t hate the idea, but the main problem is that it A) still takes so much from other German factions, B) Based on early war, and C) Just mish-mashes non-German Axis into a single faction.

Honestly how? First, the only units borrowed from existing factions are the Panther and Sd.Kfz 250 - and the Hetzer if you include the flamethrower variant. Second, almost all units here entered the war in 1943 or later. Only exceptions are the Italian small arms, motorcyle, Sd.Kfz 250, and the Panzer III. Third, I can't imagine an Axis faction working in CoH2 without featuring a ton of German equipment. Hungarian/Romanian/Finnish/Italian technology was not sophisticated enough to stand up to Allied weapons by 1944-45.

The faction concept seems interesting enough, would defintely give it a try. However, I think the Aggression & Defensive part in Tier 2 & 3 doesn't seem clearly different. At the last tier you can clearly see the diffence: A mobile tank vs a stationary tank destroyer, but in previous tiers, the two just seems fairly similar, not much seperable between them

I largely agree with you but it's hard to feature entirely new units and such and still make everything work as far as balance and history are concerned. I thought maybe about replacing the Sd.Kfz 250/1 halftrack with the Italian AB-41 armoured car. Think I'll put that in a doctrine though.

Honestly, btw, I know this is 99.9% never going to happen, but I enjoy designing stuff like this and trying to fit everything together.

Cant we just add the SS?

They could have a special retreat ability that destroys all the buildings they run past during their retreat

Should we leave dead bodies of PoWs and civilian behind while we are at it? xD

I think they stopped using Feldblau pretty early on.

Well, the Luftwaffe Field Divisions never really stopped wearing them per sé, but after being turned over to the Heer in late 1943 the uniform items to replace broken and used ones that would be issued would be feldgrau. So they would gradually phase out the feldblau stuff, but never had time to do it completely.

Didn't find anything solid on the HG PzKorps, but since that was never turned over to the Heer, I suspect that they would retain the Luftwaffe uniforms simply as a matter of being distinct.

In any case, I think having them all wearing feldblau and splinter camo is not straying too far from history.

If you want Afika Korps, play Coh1 with the Blitzkrieg mod and the Afrika '43 addon. Afrika would be straight retarded for this game though.

because soviets playing with USA against western wehrmacht is not retarded.....

because soviets playing with USA against western wehrmacht is not retarded.....

Yea, I agree, it is and we don't need anymore of that.

Well, the Luftwaffe Field Divisions never really stopped wearing them per sé, but after being turned over to the Heer in late 1943 the uniform items to replace broken and used ones that would be issued would be feldgrau. So they would gradually phase out the feldblau stuff, but never had time to do it completely.

Didn't find anything solid on the HG PzKorps, but since that was never turned over to the Heer, I suspect that they would retain the Luftwaffe uniforms simply as a matter of being distinct.

In any case, I think having them all wearing feldblau and splinter camo is not straying too far from history.

My bad, I thought the transfer was in 42. Yea, that would be cool then.

Yeah, I linked to the Panzer 38(t), but the vehicle I was actually referring to was this semi-obscure variant:



According to the Wiki, somewhere between fifty and seventy of these things were constructed in 1943-44.

That's an interesting one, what about the Flakpanzer 38(t)? I think it was more common.

Not that it's ever going to happen, but here's six commanders:

Entrenchment Doctrine

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Italian Assault Doctrine

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Salvage Doctrine

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Panzerjager Doctrine

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Fallschirmjager Doctrine

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Italian Infantry Doctrine

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Honestly how? First, the only units borrowed from existing factions are the Panther and Sd.Kfz 250 - and the Hetzer if you include the flamethrower variant. Second, almost all units here entered the war in 1943 or later. Only exceptions are the Italian small arms, motorcyle, Sd.Kfz 250, and the Panzer III. Third, I can't imagine an Axis faction working in CoH2 without featuring a ton of German equipment. Hungarian/Romanian/Finnish/Italian technology was not sophisticated enough to stand up to Allied weapons by 1944-45.

Allow me to clarify my statements:

What I meant by taking too much from Germans I meant from CoH1 as well as this game.
Specifically not by way of direct unit ripoffs (ie Panther) but units that operate much like them, ie a Panzer 38t with 2cm being effectively Luchs. IMO the units can be more fleshed out to be similar in role but not to the point that they are pretty much the same; unlike Allies with have the benefit of country-specific variants (Firefly is hardly like Jackson, for example), Germans don't really have that benefit, so it's not exactly an easy job to begin with. This is afterall just a rough sketch of an idea.

To more specifically scrutinze some of the idea's features:

-Starters, the faction name: identical to an OKW commander; simple solution is to just rename to something like "Luftwaffe Field Divisions", of which is an actual name for formations like the Hermann Goering Panzer-Division. It's short and to the point, it features Luftwaffe stuff you'll be using on the ground. Of course this depends on whether the faction is supposed to be about Luftwaffe ground forces, or merely a faction that's featuring a ton of Axis (ie Italian) units so it feels like an "Ersatz Axis" faction.
Another name, mimicking Panzer Elite from CoH1, is to have a fictional "Luftwaffe Elite Forces", which emphasizes a few and the brave playstyle and features Luftwaffe-based units. Then again so many elements of this faction is just a hybrid of Italian and German units.

For units, a simple summarized list of units so far put into OP:

T0 units
-Luftwaffe Field Troops mainline infantry
-120mm heavy mortar
-motorcycle
-AT sniper crew weapon OR 2cm flak crew weapon
-Officer as starter unit

T2 units
-RR AT Gun
-Luft-Pios engineers
-250 MG halftrack OR 250 AT halftrack

T3 units
- medium AT tank
- medium AI tank
- one tank destroyer per specialization

T4 units
- howitzer assault gun
- crewed artillery weapon
- Panther OR Jagdpanther


Officer unit as starter (presumably an actual squad and if killed, respawns with existing upgrades intact? Would help mitigate it being a weak unit, and this "invulnerability to wipe" can be compensated by a very slow or not particular powerful veterancy system, for example the buffs and powers he offers are affected by the change in specializations...or he has no veterancy at all, the power he offers to the player and the army is entirely determined by teching/ specializations: of which unlock specific powers.

In general, I think one way to make this faction more unique from the others is that it's a "small but tough" faction: you have a smaller actual unit roster, but those units are more versatile and powerful than you'd find playing OKW or Ostheer.

For infantry it is a bit too similar to OKW: you got an assault builder unit and 5-man mainline infantry squad. The former are basically FJs that can build, and their weapons mean that you'll never use the weapon racks on them, of which seem entirely limited to the 5-man squad, so you either might as well just make it a classic unit upgrade, or offer different roles through the weapon racks: ie AT weapon in place of the LMG.
One way you can revamp this is to make it similar to the Panzer Elite infantry model: one actual squad, but of which gain new abilities when teching up: the squad can be upgraded at cheap cost to perform various special roles, but once upgraded are permanent- AT variant for example cannot build stuff, nor do they come with good AI weapons. For example, the Luft-Pioneers are instead an upgrade path for the maineline infantry, they just allow them to build and repair things, but at the expense of not being good at anything else.
THis makes the main faction play about using good units, whereas doctrinal infantry call-ins are mainly themed around less powerful but more numerous and cheap squads, the opposite of how doctrines are normally designed around. Luftwaffe Field Divisions can be like Osttruppen where they suck at everything besides fighting.

In terms of the vehicles, there seems to be numerous overlaps, but which can be easily rectified by either amalgamating some abilities and removing others as doctrinal or specialization unlocks.
I'll make an example of the T2 halftracks: instead of the specialization unlocking one or the other, they unlock the 2cm flak gun which can suppress and shred light vehicles as well as AA role, or the short 75mm gun which is more suitable against infantry fortifications and. This removes a few units from the overall roster, but it still allows you a unit that can be upgraded to fulfill both roles; the cost and time to upgrade might have to be shortened, though, otherwise you might have a faction that has many options but can never afford to pick one, let alone both.

I also think the Specializations system be revamped so they are more ability unlocks instead of unit unlocks- obviously this is more in line with how I think the upgrade paths works, but it also means that it's less of an imitation of UKF specializations (which had two, and one only unlocked unis, the other a few late-game abilities plus unit).
For instance you can choose both, or perhaps one at a time but it is relatively easy to choose another when convenience or necessity presents itself. This means that a large part of the player's strategic thinking involves constantly "macromanaging" the faction as a whole; the results of which determine the micromanagement of the units it influences. This will have to make the specializations a little less major in their changes, like removing some abilities and adding them to the overall roster or locking them behind doctrinal abilities.

I also happened to be thinking about CNC Generals at the time I was reading this, and what came to mind regarding specializations was that game's USA Strategic Center, of which had a specialization mechanic: in that game you can choose three modifiers to your units: Bombardment gives units more damage, Hold The Line which improves durability, and Search and Destroy, which improves sight and weapon range. You could change the modifiers at any time, but it meant that all your units and defenses cannot move or fight for a few seconds.
What you can do with that idea in this faction is you can choose and change one specialization of each tier specialization by way of selecting them in the respective tier, and when changing it you are deprived of all specializations until the change is complete. The change may either take a long time and not heavily affect your units' abilities, or it's short but can leave you in a seriously weakened position that the enemy can exploit, for example your units have ZERO special abilities when transitioning specializations, or they have temporary combat penalties like reduced movement speed, or even just a considerably gimped economy so players aren't encourage to constantly shift specializations- players can quickly easily adapt, but it always costs a lot.
As the change only affects the respective tier and not the entire army like it does in CNC Generals, this allows some flexibility to the player regarding what units get gimped at any time; changing T0 specializations for example, even if it contains abilities that T4 units can use, won't be that serious a gimp to your medium tanks simply because most of the changes affect T0 stuff. It could be serious if you're in a sore spot and one specialization offers your damaged tanks increased repair rate, but ultimately your tanks don't get the same type of penalties as if it was a change in T4 specialization.
An example of changing specializations is that they simply determine some upgrade possibilities as well as availability of unit abilities: for example, T4 specialization is required to Panther/ JPanther as well as S-mine launchers or skirt armour: in my scheme you can get Panthers with skirts and JPanthers with S-mine launchers, and be able to change the abilities (the unit unlocks are either permanent or removed entirely from the specialization scheme), but can never do both at any time. A player can this in the middle of a game opt for an aggressive stance from his original defensive benefits, but when changing T4 specializations, cannot use either S-mines or upgrade to skirt armour.

Additional nitpicks in regards to specific units:

Mortar: IMO it should instead be a lighter but faster and more mobile "Kz GrW42 81mm" instead of a heavy mortar comparable to Soviet HM-38. Using a Luftwaffe theme, the "Kurz Mortar" has lower range, but comes as early as USF's mortar, fires reasonably faster, and specializations unlock unique powers like flare shell without vet1, and "Bouncing Bomb" which causes airburst effect: the shorter range makes for tactical drawbacks, but the weapon is cheaper, requires only one guy to handle (cannot be decrewed by just bringing it down to 1 man), and versatile due to ability to change specializations mid-match. Other unique advantages is being quicker to set up/ tear down, moves faster or has no movement penalties, and can toggle camouflage that reduces rate of fire, but can hide if the enemy is too close and trying to kill it off; this means that the unit offers less firepower per se, but offers more survivability in return.
In addition as part of a halftrack revamp, the mortar can be put inside the 250 and be used much like the Ostheer Mortar Halftrack: it can do all of its abilities on the ground, but with the addition of greater speed. The obvious drawbacks are that its in a vehicle, require a vehicle, and easily lost because its a light vehicle.

250 halftrack: as stated earlier it can be modified to have a multi-dimensional role for your units: it can transport the 2cm AT rifle, the mortar, and gain special abilities depending depending on the specialization and upgrades they have; for example, an un-upgraded infantry squad offers increased line of sight, making it a good recon unit while still can fight, or unlocks suppressive fire ability if the squad is equipped with any LMGs in the game, from Soviets' DP-28 to OKW's LMG34. 2cm gun means it can Button or Tread attack enemy vehicles, and mortar allows for incendiary shell. Naturally, this means that the 250 halftrack expands your other units' abilities, you just need to have both put together to be able to use them. This might end up being a huge micro burden, though, as it might end up forcing the player to constantly shuffle units with eachother just to do certain things; the idea might probably be better in a very limited form, but depending on doctrinal unlocks offers a wide range greatly expanded options, but unlike specializations the doctrinal ones are permanent.

Panther: I think it might be more suitable if the tank was a doctrinal call-in with some unique caveats, ie a infrared sight so it can also detect nearby units in fog of war instead of a pintle MG. In its place, the JPanther could just be a third T4 unit that doesn't require specialization. I don't think anyone would prefer Panther over Jpanther especially if there's already two factions that offer it, people would just always prefer the Jpanther unlock.

The Nebelwerfer seems a bit lacklustre, basically Land Mattress clone, and doesn't really fit a Luftwaffe theme: the closest we have to Luftwaffe rocket launchers are only found on planes.
I can't say I have a suitable replacement for it outside of a SPG or making the StuH42 fill a dual bombardment/ assault gun role; I was thinking of the 88mm emplacement, but it's an emplacement and I think might be better if it was a doctrinal unlock (and knowing Relic they'll likely go for a DLC commander that sells popular stuff). It is also not like T4 needs an artillery unit, neither UKF nor OKW does for asymmetrical reasons. StuH42, the Kurz Mortar idea, and according to wikipedia the LG40 Recoilless shared the leFH.18 howitzer's shells, which arguably means that can also have a bombardment ability as either an alternate toggle or a special ability. All these allow this faction to have powerful artillery without needing a T4 unit that mimics Panzerwerfer. If found in a commander, it can at least be an emplacement under a defensive themed doctrine.

Panzer III Ausf. L: Seems nice enough of an idea, it could be a hybrid of the Panzer4's generalist capabilities and the Puma's speed, weapon range but not weapon sight; this requires at least one or more units to ensure the Panzer III keeps firing from a safe distance. The weaker stats compared to Panzer 4 means a player can't just treat it like another P4 faction.

I'm not too keen on so many Panzer 38(t) based vehicles in a faction without them being doctrinal, IMO the Flakpanzer 38(t) could instead be Wirbelwind, Panzer4 chassis for good armour and quad 20mm flak guns for shredding infantry. It presents a bit of a dilemma in gameplay where you opt to spend your first T3 fuel on good AI or starting to focus on mobile AT armour. The Flakpanzer 38(t) ideas can instead of doctrinal call-ins, opting for earlier but lighter and weaker flak firepower for an earlier AI advantage. In any case, a flak-based tank can have a toggle ability to go stationary, offering suppressive fire if there are no other units that do so, and/or increased rate of fire- in the case of Wirbelwind, all four guns fire at rapid pace, increasing DPS and ROF.

Hetzer + Marder III: hey seem too similar, Hetzer actually had very thin armour, it relied on low profile, mobility and alphas strike for survivability. What you can do is remove Marder III, but getting Hetzer requires going either Agg or Def specialization.


That is all I got on the faction stock stuff, I'll make a reply focusing on commanders later.

I don't like the infantry- base troops seem like upgrade reliant Volks, engineers seem to be Sturms. It makes sense to just make engineering part of an upgrade path for the core infantry somehow, building on the flexibility theme.

I also think the officer should be the cornerstone of the army, and that "specializations" should just be fuel based upgrades like with the Brits.

More on the officer: it would be neat if he could give off different kinds of auras depending on his level/upgrade/doctrine, like a "Zeal" aura where units fight harder but die faster, or a "construction" aura where buildings and repairs and maybe capturing are done faster. Slap him in a 250 Halftrack and you have a solid commander that can zip around buffing different parts of the army at ease.

I would make the officer less about active abilities and more about passive ones, and auras.

In terms of teching I think the faction is similar (too much) to the UKF. It would be nice if there was more early game choices to be made, because I see 3 core troop into a motorcycle into tech as the BO every time.

IMO make "aggression" and "defense" fuel based upgrades that aren't mutually exclusive (but hella pricy to get both) and use side upgrades to stagger the arrivals of new units to add variety into teching. (T0 side upgrade for the Skz 250 for instance.)

Overall 8.5/10 on the faction, I love it and could see it honestly.

EDIT: on infantry, it would be interesting to copy the Space Marines model from DoW2, the 5 man line troops acting as cappers and light cqc/garrison clearing while the FJ are elite 3 man teams that's sole purpose is to output ranged dps, tank, and defend territory. Core troop must choose between engineer upgrade, LMG upgrade, or SMG upgrade. FJ must pick between FG42 or Shrek upgrade.

I admit I'm not a fan of having Italian stuff in a Luftwaffe faction, so expect my opinions to carry that bias and reflect in some changes I suggest when going over more stuff.

Also, a point or two on a new faction's commander scheme:
I think a good twist to this faction's commander design is that there are additional Specializations for specific tiers, which can be added in addition to the regular Agg/ Def specializations. This gives a unique twist to commanders while serving to offer unique powers to your stock units, rather than relying largely on call-ins and off-map stuff. The design would have to be carefully done to mitigate balance issues, and not necessarily offer large bonuses. The good thing is that these can be limited to specific tiers, so the commander's design may be geared towards specific ranges of units through specializations, whilst call-ins can offer lighter or heavier options. I'll try to make a few examples in my review of current commander ideas.
Another idea is that the Field Officer's abilities are enhanced depending on the doctrinal unlocks a commander offers, for example, an air support commander grants airstrikes when the Officer performs his abilities.

Entrenchment Doctrine

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Italian Assault Doctrine
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Salvage Doctrine
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Panzerjager Doctrine
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I like this

reminds me of my faction idea, except more german and less italy.

Unlocking both tac advance AND suppression seems a bit excessive.

Not exactly sure what Tactical Advance is, so it depends on what it does.
OP might have misspelled it and intended to be Stormtroopers' Tactical Assault ability when they upgrade to StG.44s, of which the effects are "Squad moves at half speed, +50% accuracy, +50% received accuracy, +150% burst length, lasts 10 seconds. Even on retreat."
This ability doesn't inflict suppression and it makes the unit move slower.
I also assume that Suppressive Fire of the FJ Marksman's vet1 unlock is the USF Paratrooper ability of same name when they upgrade to M1919 LMG, it offering "-75% cool-down, +1% suppression, +200% burst length" according to the Ability Guide. Haven;t used that ability in a while so not sure if it would work well in a unit with the Tactical Advance ability.
In any case the two abilities can still possibly be put together by way of sharing cooldowns- if you use Suppressive Fire you cannot use Tactical Advance. Or of course one ability is shifted to another weapon upgrade.
Also it could still work in combination but would prove a big munitions sink into a single call-in squad.