Just some thoughts on Ostheer units currently.

Its easier to recover from suppression when you're in cover and when shot by low RoF weapons(bolt action rifles).

That explains it.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is you don't need to just straight up make it an arms race between allied and axis tanks/fanboys (like it's been for the game's entire history) by buffing the P4. You can increase its soft power by improving the faction design.

I´m not big fun of a straight Grenadier buff.

Ostheer has the best synergy with support weapons and the last thing I want to see, is them becoming another "spam your regular infantry to win faction".

The only thing that´s needed in my opinion are small buffs to the armor. Tiger + 30 front armor, Panther getting OKW stats and - 5 fuel for the Panzer IV. See how that works out.

I´m not big fun of a straight Grenadier buff.

Ostheer has the best synergy with support weapons and the last thing I want to see, is them becoming another "spam your regular infantry to win faction".

The only thing that´s needed in my opinion are small buffs to the armor. Tiger + 30 front armor, Panther getting OKW stats and - 5 fuel for the Panzer IV. See how that works out.

How does that fix wehrmacht infantry game?Its all just crutch sniper.

How does that fix wehrmacht infantry game?Its all just crutch sniper.

What are the problems exactly? (besides broken things that should/will be fixed like USF mortar)

How does that fix wehrmacht infantry game?Its all just crutch sniper.

Assymetrical balance. Ostheer needs a weakness and to compensate, it has other strenghts. You can´t run around and demand everything for the faction. They already have great support weapons. But those alone don´t hold the faction up. So it´s either Grens or the lategame. And imo lategame buffs make more sense to not have the same faction x5. There is enough infantry spam already.

What are the problems exactly? (besides broken things that should/will be fixed like USF mortar)

USF mortar,barring a heavy nerf that turned it into a light mortar only good in barrage mode even if it was toned down to wehr mortar level invalidates wehrmacht infantry play due to its reliance on mg42 and grens in cover to combat superior rifles,as grenadiers cant really employ the mobile disruption playstyle of rifles ..if they are caught in open ground..retreat or die.Then comes the early stuart which wont die to pak as it can back away due to its health and will severely restrict your field presence,its another problem wehrmacht cant properly counter.
Lategame rifles get insane vet bonuses and really neither grenadiers,nor pzgrens will hold ground against them.These are definite issues.

For ukf earlygame is balanced,only issue is lategame double brens which makes wehr infantry largely useless.

Against soviet things were more or less balanced before the penal-guards combo recently became a thing and we can see a spike in soviet winrate considerably.Grenadiers are not adequate against these,yet you must get them as penals often combine with a clown car which will make ur mg positioning very cautious.

Assymetrical balance. Ostheer needs a weakness and to compensate, it has other strenghts. You can´t run around and demand everything for the faction. They already have great support weapons. But those alone don´t hold the faction up. So it´s either Grens or the lategame. And imo lategame buffs make more sense to not have the same faction x5. There is enough infantry spam already.

We dont get compensation..that is the problem.Wehrmacht armour is not definitively superior at all asmuch as allied indirect fire and infantry are compared to german.Tiger has become redundant.same for panther.Pz 4 overpriced.Stug is the crutch unit for armour that keeps faction alive,same way sniper is for infantry.

As ostheer HAS many weaknesses...amongst them the abysymal repair situation and squadwiping potential due to low member count,no cost effective armour except stug,very difficult time properly countering blobs,no real light vehicle play,no real early counter to emplacements etc etc.

We dont get compensation..that is the problem.Wehrmacht armour is not definitively superior at all asmuch as allied indirect fire and infantry are compared to german.Tiger has become redundant.same for panther.Pz 4 overpriced.Stug is the crutch unit for armour that keeps faction alive,same way sniper is for infantry.

Hence I´m suggesting the buffs to German armor. We´re actually agreeing that Ostheer is lacking something atm.

With OKW Panther stats the Ost Panther would actually become relevant. It could fight off infantry to some extend and thus slowly vet up to become more useful versus tanks. People always argue that the Panther is worse at AT than the dedicated TDs of the Allies because of the ability to fight infatnry. Yet I only see that on the OKW Panther.

Hence I´m suggesting the buffs to German armor. We´re actually agreeing that Ostheer is lacking something atm.

What you are suggesting wont make things any easier vs usf where bulk of the problems are earlygame.Also just giving panther okw stats is too meagre a change to make much difference.We also need something to deal with the repair situation..its baffling how a player forced to field 2 units worth 400 manpower on the field constantly has FAAR more turnaround time on his armour than a usf player who spends no resources yet is constantly back on the field.Vanilla armies need an upgrade in this regard,pio sweeper upgrade needs repair speed boost.

It's one thing to buff underused units so they can perform their intended role, look at the good changes to previously underused units such as Brumbarr or SU-76 as an example.

The difference is, that the SU-76 received the necessary buffs and changes to make it perform well in its intended role - as a cheap, mobile AT gun, meant to stop Panzer IVs.
The Stupa never really had a role it was meant to perform, at least not since Relic changed its projectile profile to artillery, effectively killing any chance this vehicle ever had. In its current state, they could lower its cost to 200MP, 100 Fuel, and it would still not be worth it, simply because at that stage of the game the vehicle is unnecessary and completely without purpose.

But that is not the problem of the vehicle. The problem of the Ostheer as an entire faction is, that it lacks initiative. It doesn't matter how their infantry and vehicles perform in direct comparison, what matters is that the player has a way to take initiative and through superior play dictate the flow of the game. And Ostheer can't do that. This is not a problem of how survivable Grens are, or how much manpower the MG 42 costs. This is a problem with the basic faction design - and no, it has nothing to do with asymmetric balance. The credibility of that argument went down the drain, when Relic released the Brits and showed us that they actually can create a faction that is defensive in nature and still has the ability to take initiative.

The effect this has in the game is that your opponent dictates when, where, and how battles happen. When playing Ostheer, you have to react. The entire faction design forces you to react, never being the acting element. All your weapons are designed with the other faction in mind, not your own (which is true to some extent for all factions, otherwise balance would be impossible, but it is the entire basis of Ostheer balancing since the WFA were released). You won't find a single element that is balanced around making it fun to use and balancing the other factions around it later, they all are done with the thought of how they will perform against the enemy first and foremost in the mind of the developer.

Ironically, the only exception to this rule, and the reason why I am even writing about it here, is the Stupa (or Brummbär, call it as you want). And the way the other factions were balanced around it was to make it entirely pointless. Which leads us back to the basic premise of this faction...

On an unrelated note, +1 avie

From an Aussie XD

Gday from Newcastle, NSW

It's one thing to buff underused units so they can perform their intended role, look at the good changes to previously underused units such as Brumbarr or SU-76 as an example. That works to fill gaps in a faction's overall capability and open up new options for play. It's another thing entirely to buff commonly-used units as that has much wider-reaching implications, plus it doesn't really improve gameplay as much as you just end up relying even more on a small selection of units and strats.

People are talking about how absurd the new factions' power creep has gotten. So people want to nerf the new 'better' factions to make them in line with the 'outdated' EFA (Wehrmacht especially). I'm saying relic would more likely buff Wehrmacht than nerf USF, UKF, and OKW altogether.

What would be easier:

buffing 3 Wehrmacht infantry units(grens/pios/pzgrens) and 2-3 tanks(pzIV/panther/tiger)

or nerfing UKF's sapper blobs, stock Tigers, cost-efficient steam rollers...

OKW's stock god unit, free flaks, super glue repairs...

and USF's terminator riflemen with their double LMGs and -45% received accuracy, etc...

?

The issue here is Ostheer's wipe-prone, underperforming infantry and it's subpar late game. Soviets back then crutched on doctrinal stuff and did fine, with the new patch they don't need to rely on doctrines as much and as a result are much stronger. Ostheer can't crutch on sht coz almost all of their arsenal is sucky. Nice that the niche 'underused' units have been buffed(flame ht and brummbar) but they can't really be crutched on (unless made borderline OP), since Ostheer core units still suck weinerschnitzel.

People are talking about how absurd the new factions' power creep has gotten. So people want to nerf the new 'better' factions to make them in line with the 'outdated' EFA (Wehrmacht especially). I'm saying relic would more likely buff Wehrmacht than nerf USF, UKF, and OKW altogether.

What would be easier:

buffing 3 Wehrmacht infantry units(grens/pios/pzgrens) and 2-3 tanks(pzIV/panther/tiger)

or nerfing UKF's sapper blobs, stock Tigers, cost-efficient steam rollers...

OKW's stock god unit, free flaks, super glue repairs...

and USF's terminator riflemen with their double LMGs and -45% received accuracy, etc...

?

The issue here is Ostheer's wipe-prone, underperforming infantry and it's subpar late game. Soviets back then crutched on doctrinal stuff and did fine, with the new patch they don't need to rely on doctrines as much and as a result are much stronger. Ostheer can't crutch on sht coz almost all of their arsenal is sucky. Nice that the niche 'underused' units have been buffed(flame ht and brummbar) but they can't really be crutched on (unless made borderline OP), since Ostheer core units still suck weinerschnitzel.

The latter, so we don't demand they mess around with Soviets like a month later.

Why would you change the way a faction is played? If you do not want an mg at start, just pick another faction.
OST is a defensive faction (imo), so you start defending as soon as you can, using the mg.

The latter, so we don't demand they mess around with Soviets like a month later.

Then ya better hope lelic doesn't decide to be lazy

or do the classic relic thing, which is quite possibly upset the balance even further after their done with all those changes. (I mean they tried to rebalance OKW and look what happened lol. Imagine if they try rebalancing all 3 facs, as opposed to rebalancing ost and maybe some of sov)

Maybe I should make a thread about this..

Kappa

What would be easier:

buffing 3 Wehrmacht infantry units(grens/pios/pzgrens) and 2-3 tanks(pzIV/panther/tiger)

or nerfing UKF's sapper blobs, stock Tigers, cost-efficient steam rollers...

OKW's stock god unit, free flaks, super glue repairs...

and USF's terminator riflemen with their double LMGs and -45% received accuracy, etc...

?

Buffing 6 units at once (3 of which are key units used every game) is at least as much of a change as addressing US mortar, double LMGs and vet bonuses. As Vuther mentioned buffing OH will throw out the OHvsSU balance, which is in a pretty good place right now. It just makes more sense to focus the majority of effort on nerfing a small number of USF and UK units. We're especially fortunate in that OKW is also not doing that well right now so isn't likely to become OP after such changes. I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself because there are like four Ostheer buff threads at the moment, but we need to remember just how tenuous the balance situation is. It's better we nerf OP units and buff those that can't do their job (e.g. Ostwind) before we go on to core units that are already fulfilling their intended role.

One thing I agree on is repair speed, that has been an issue since WFA and is especially troublesome for high-HP tanks such as the tiger. The subject has already been discussed at length so no need to revisit it, hopefully one day EFA will have some way to get faster repairs other than vetted engineers.

The problem of the Ostheer as an entire faction is, that it lacks initiative. It doesn't matter how their infantry and vehicles perform in direct comparison, what matters is that the player has a way to take initiative and through superior play dictate the flow of the game. And Ostheer can't do that.

At risk of going on a tangent here, I don't agree with this. Just because Ostheer isn't usually the first to launch an offensive (execpt perhaps against emplacement-heavy UKF, but that matchup is pretty boring in general), doesn't mean it has no way of taking the initiative. Occupying key structures, locking down key resource points, establishing a strong position that dominates that map, all are ways Ostheer can seize the initiative. From there, they can use mobile units to lure the enemy to a favourable engagement, or long-range units to safely attrit them from distance. Defense is about ensuring engagements happen on favourable terms, then going on the offensive when conditions are more ideal. In my eyes, nearly every OH unit has a clearly defined role in aiding that objective e.g. MGs handle infantry, grens protect support weapons and Stug from flanking enemies, p4 provides essential mobile defense and counterattack capability.

Of course where it all falls down is when the enemy has units that completely invalidate that, such as a mortar that easily picks off static units, a blob of doom that sweeps aside MGs from the front, or a rocket launcher that deletes your crew-served weapons before you have any chance to react. Some of those have been fixed to the benefit of balance, some of those still need to be addressed.

Maybe OKW should swap Obers for Panzergrenadiers with Ostheer.

Give grens the single panzerschreck.

Seriously though, the problem with all four man squads is that they clump around corners and in cover too easily. What makes grens particularly vulnerable is that to engage at long range they must become stationary. In addition the lmg42 upgrade (that they almost require to be competitive) has to have them be stationary to aim and fire.

Better spread in cover and pathing around objects would go a long way to improve the plight of all 4 man squads, most especially grenadiers.

But the only circumstances that grenadiers should get a fifth man is if comes with an upgrade that exchanges their weapons for mp40s. And make the upgrade replace assault grenadiers.

The Tiger could use a front armor boost and the Panther needs either a slight cost reduction, or made to be similar/identical to OKW panther. Those I think are pretty necessary.