Heavy engineers Vickers

Any comments on Heavy engineers vickers upgrade ??? so you have 1 vicker and 3 short range guns whrs the logic???? should i then prefer 3 short range guns for short range combat and ignore vicker or prefer vicker on long range and ignore 3 short range guns ????

From your post, I can see that you are worrying too much about how to use heavy engineers efficiently. This is a learn2zen issue.

When upgrading a squad of sappers to heavy engineers, you are supposed to use them like "Osttruppen from Hell".

That is to say, you don't have to worry too much about how you use them. You are supposed to make the enemy worry about how to tackle them cost-efficiently.

If the enemy chooses to fight you at range, you just sit there and fire back. You will win.

If the enemy starts closing in (probably to throw a grenade at you), you start moving towards them to deal damage with your Sten guns.

By the time you have to retreat:
- You will have bled the enemy more MP than he has bled to you
- You will have wasted the enemy 1-2 minutes of engagement time, by which point you have the opportunity to bring reinforcements/strike elsewhere
- (since it's impossible to kill heavy engineers with small arms fire), the enemy will have wasted more munitions trying to kill your Sappers, than how much you spent upgrading them.

Having said that, Heavy Sappers are best used in a trench. That way, the insta-garrison-ungarrison feature allows you to dodge grenades with ease.

Never give heavy engineers any upgrades other than the Vickers_k and the minesweeper. This is all about attrition.

5-man squads greatly improve the efficiency of Heavy Sappers.

Utility-wise there's not much to discuss:
- 2-second mine deployment times
- Insta-glue repairs
- etc

All-in-all, Heavy Engineers are the game's greatest middle finger to Vet4 Obers.

(the counterplay to Heavy Sappers is indirect fire pieces)

...Never give heavy engineers any upgrades other than the Vickers_k and the minesweeper. This is all about attrition...

...All-in-all, Heavy Engineers are the game's greatest middle finger to Vet4 Obers.

Why not more upgrades? they seem to kill/wipe anything sort of living with 2xbrens and that vickers_k from going heavy engineers?

And do they even need sweepers anymore when the OKW mines are changed to not dangerous after the patch.

Why not more upgrades? they seem to kill/wipe anything sort of living with 2xbrens and that vickers_k from going heavy engineers?

And do they even need sweepers anymore when the OKW mines are changed to not dangerous after the patch.

1) Because the moment you sink 190 munitions on a unit, it suddenly becomes precious. Heavy sappers are all about Zen, attrition and prolonging fights. It's not about you worrying.

2) The unit has low survivability vs indirect fire
- it moves slower than anything else in the game when it gets hit
- it suffers from the same squad formation clumpability issues that plague axis infantry

You don't want to sink 190 munitions in a unit like that.

3) They get absolutely 0 offensive vet bonuses, as a squad.

Even with 3 LMGs, heavy sappers deal less damage than double LMG tommies deal. Thus, it's better to save your munitions for Tommies. (or, better yet, for some off-maps)

4) You can't choose the engagement distances. Thus it's better to be prepared for all cases.

The unit is extremely-low DPS. Thus, no matter how many LMGs you have, the enemy WILL close the distance to you. Since LMGs are actually a down-grade for close-range, you just minimized your chances of survival.

5) Because heavy sappers Just Work with that vickers_k.

Trust me!

Now, regarding minesweepers. As long as Brits have tanks, and OST has s-mines and tellers, there will always be a need for a minesweeper.

3) They get absolutely 0 offensive vet bonuses, as a squad.

Even with 3 LMGs, heavy sappers deal less damage than double LMG tommies deal. Thus, it's better to save your munitions for Tommies. (or, better yet, for some off-maps)

The unit is extremely-low DPS. Thus, no matter how many LMGs you have, the enemy WILL close the distance to you. Since LMGs are actually a down-grade for close-range, you just minimized your chances of survival.

A had the understandin that engineer bren hits a lot harder than IS bren. (I have to play on low ranks or somehing because usually (grens and obers just slug it and lose from the long range against them)

5) Because heavy sappers Just Work with that vickers_k.

Trust me!

I'll try it next time.

Now, regarding minesweepers. As long as Brits have tanks, and OST has s-mines and tellers, there will always be a need for a minesweeper.

Yeah agaist ost and their tellers its must but i regarded that usually OKW mines just seems to kill that 1 model of when walked on. (its a shame that mines don't penalize infantry badly anymore exept S-mines on retreat path which seems to still wipe whole squad)

A had the understandin that engineer bren hits a lot harder than IS bren. (I have to play on low ranks or somehing because usually (grens and obers just slug it and lose from the long range against them)

It's true that a Vet0 Sapper Bren will hit a bit harder than a vet0 Infantry Section Bren. However, the situation reverses when the IS achieves Vet3.

Grens that choose to slug it out from a distance vs Heavy Sappers will still lose to a singular Vickers-K. The unupgraded stens are a collateral that when the inevitable close-in-for rifle-nade time comes, you can close your half of the distance and bleed the Grens even harder.

(This is like the PGrens vs Tommies situation, where PGrens will always beat non-garrisoned Tommies, regardless of cover, and regardless of how many Brens are in-use)

I don't remember whether Obers will win vs Heavy Sappers, however they will still bleed a lot more than you until they decide to use grenades. Regardless of the outcome, the fact that you've tied down a 400MP unit that could be rekking your troops with a 210MP unit is a win of its own.

It gets even better for the Heavy engineers when Obers get passive suppression; a suppressed heavy engineer will receive even less damage.

having hit a bit overkill with engies then... Have to try next time when playing...

THX and sry about topic hijacking...

Unless the information is out of date, sappers get "-30% cooldown WHEN IN COVER, -50% Reload IN COVER" at vet 1. I'd say that's decent offensive vet, yeah they don't get any accuracy bonus but it's not like they have no offensive scaling at all. Combined with the other bonuses engineers have over sections, imo there's no reason to make any additional infantry sections instead of getting engineers.

They don't have any offensive scaling at all.

The bonus only affects their Sten guns, which have a very small effective range. Thus, you will almost never have the benefit of cover and the ability to damage your opponent with Sten guns at the same time.

Due to a bug the bonus was also applying to Vickers_k between March and 21 June. I'm afraid you're too late for the party!

Also another problem is that Anvil tech besides heavy RE everything else is total pudding, advanced warning is bugged, Airburst shell is still crap due to 25-pounder being crap, Churchill is No1 vet feeder to Axis AT. Hammer is much better in every way.

If you want them to be a long range combat squad give them the Vickers K + Double Bren LMG. This firepower combined with their 50% reinforce cost reduction at Vet 3 makes them extremely efficient, although not as outright powerful as a Vet 3 infantry section.

They also have the advantage of building, planting mines and repairing quite quickly.

I think they get some level of armor as well, so they're probably roughly as "tanky" as Infantry Sections but I'm too lazy to do the math right now.

If you want them to be more of a CQC squad, don't invest the extra munis for the double Bren LMG. But a squad getting 3 weapon upgrades is unique and powerful.

If you want them to be a long range combat squad give them the Vickers K + Double Bren LMG. This firepower combined with their 50% reinforce cost reduction at Vet 3 makes them extremely efficient, although not as outright powerful as a Vet 3 infantry section.

I've had used them couple of times so that i have 2 RE with 2xbrens and vickersk. They seem to melt everything living thing in front of them. Seeing obers start to run away from them than fighting makes me giggle BUT one arty shell and its all over in bad spot. a rly expensive unit to lose.

Fun fact is that hey can have 3 lmgs and mine sweeper so mines won't hurt them. ( damn asymetric balance Spios i am looking at you)

Heavy RE: No1 Rifle nade bait.

The bonus only affects their Sten guns, which have a very small effective range. Thus, you will almost never have the benefit of cover and the ability to damage your opponent with Sten guns at the same time

So it works only in green cover? I always tought that brits have unfair advantage late game where there is yellow cover all around the battle zone if form of craters...